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UER Forum > Archived US: Great Lakes > Strohs Brewery burns!! (Viewed 2894 times)
EatsTooMuchJam 


Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 20 on 11/21/2005 3:08 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Yeah. Do you think that all of the sites in the Twin Cities are unlisted in the LDB because we're too lazy or stupid to make them? No. They're unlisted because shit that gets put in the LDB gets destroyed. It's that simple. The same is true of sites in at least a half dozen other areas.

"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
-Tom Waits
Glass 


Location: Chicago


as one does

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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 21 on 11/21/2005 4:43 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
'Why must you be such an angry young man?'
I thought about putting this online a while ago but have really waited for other things to fall into place before I posted this to my website and this one.
Enhanced security on the property, media attention, significant destruction, and official demolition.
I've heard from more than one friend back in the cities tell me that they patched up most of the entry points. After the fire everyone in Minnesota knows there's an huge abandoned brewery in St. Paul that even vagrants can walk in and out of without difficulty. Demolition started early this year with the city gutting a lot of it's Hamm's property including the pipe and electric houses--not to mention the stockhouse across the street! I watched them do it.
Also, this LDB entry isn't for the general public... that's not saying that everyone with a elevated status has the best intent, but it's not as unsecure as the information on most websites covering this complex.
I guess that's my mini-justification... it's not that I didn't pick up on your point (that and your attitude are very clear); I'm just basing more of my trust in my reasoning.
If you can explain to me why I'm wrong I can remove the name and location of the site. If anybody else has feeling on the issue please vent them here, I guess!


EatsTooMuchJam 


Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 22 on 11/21/2005 4:55 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
You're wrong if for no other reason than increasing attention on that place in the wake of recent destruction is not a good thing. It will only encourage more people to go and vandalize the place. It's bad enough that it's listed on Action Squad.
I've had a mostly-completed location for the place for over a year now, though I was referring to it by a different name (as is generally our rule of thumb with those things excepting those that are extremely difficult to reach). I hadn't put it live because the buildings are still there and they're still explorable. I was waiting and will continue to wait until they are demolished or reused.

As much as I'm generally against the whole idea of posting only what the community supports, the LDB is a good place for it. Did you even bother discussing the entry with any of the other explorers in the Twin Cities before you went and created it - like maybe me or Slim Jim or Max Action? You remember us? We're the ones who explored the place originally.


EDIT:
I just noticed you put Phalen Creek in there too. What the hell is wrong with you?
[last edit 11/21/2005 4:57 PM by EatsTooMuchJam - edited 1 times]

"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
-Tom Waits
Glass 


Location: Chicago


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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 23 on 11/21/2005 5:01 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I'm was already in the process of changing the names. Sorry to piss you off...

EatsTooMuchJam 


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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 24 on 11/21/2005 5:31 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
It's not about pissing me off. It's about taking an action that none of the other local explorers want taken.

Changing the names is one thing. Removing the offending locations would be much better.

"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
-Tom Waits
Glass 


Location: Chicago


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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 25 on 11/21/2005 5:59 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I'm going to take Phalen down, then... that's fair because my entry isn't the best representation I can think of.
As far as the brewery goes... I know that I don't reveal the location and name in my new entry so I think it's safe to leave it up for a couple days at least to get some feedback on this thread and the galleries itself.


Glass 


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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 26 on 11/21/2005 6:17 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
i requested the locations be taken down.

do a jig

GreyKat 


Location: Minneapolis/St Paul MN
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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 27 on 11/21/2005 7:07 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
OK I decided to revise this post after creating it.
Mynameisglass - you seem to be pretty new to exploring and are taking it full tilt..thats great! Exploring is great keep doing it!
Please though put some thought into what locations you post and its not a great idea to post names of people you explore with nor the location how to drive there to vandalise it, and also provide them with where and how to get in.
For other explorers it takes the fun out of it, and for non explorer like taggers and vandals it tells them all about that cool new place to go fuck up.
Its great that your posting locations and keep exploring, just please use a little caution.



[last edit 11/21/2005 7:14 PM by GreyKat - edited 2 times]

Avatar-X 

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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 28 on 11/21/2005 7:19 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Wow, you guys are jerks.

Talk about the most selfish, self-serving crap I've ever seen. "I explored it first, so I'm going to decide who gets to see it and where it can be posted". Real mature. It's like watching a bunch of 5-year-olds arguing over who gets to play in the sandbox.

mynameisglass can post whatever the hell he wants and there's nothing the rest of you can say about it. Don't get pissed off just because he beat you to the punch.

As for "shit that gets put in the LDB gets destroyed", first we have the Full Member system to help protect against that, and then there's the simple tactic of not putting all the details in. It's no different than listing the place on your own website -- better, actually, because of Full Membership. There are places listed in the Toronto DB that are untouched.

Grow up.

-av

huskies - such fluff.
EatsTooMuchJam 


Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 29 on 11/21/2005 7:41 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Av, whatever you think about your "security" system and how safe things are that are in the LDB there are others who disagree and it's not at all surprising that you zeroed in on one completely irrelevant part of the discussion (that some of us were there first) and used that as your strawman. You'll just have to face the facts that not every community wants all of their UE locations published in a searchable database format that someone else controls.
The fact that I'm the one who spoke up doesn't mean that others don't feel the same way.

We have an active explorer community here and it isn't terribly difficult for new people to get involved. The LDB is unnecessary for the Twin Cities other than for a bunch of vandals and taggers who are looking for places to go destroy.

"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
-Tom Waits
Glass 


Location: Chicago


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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 30 on 11/21/2005 7:55 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
In response to a volley of PMs, I'm going to keep the brewery site up as it is now (i.e. no details, censored to hell (including deleting several photos), and without any naming of it). I think other issues concerning the database entry should be taken up within the location's page where everyone who has an opinion can find it. Here's the link:

http://www.uer.ca/locations/show.asp?locid=23459

Freak 


Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP.
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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 31 on 11/21/2005 8:56 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
The Twin Cities have had a lot of negative publicity on exploring, and it's known that property owners and police cruise various forums from time to time. Some folks with websites on certain places around town were contacted by police and property owners a while back, I believe that particular site was one.
The LDB might work fine for Canada, where there's a looser attitude towards exploring on the part of officials. Historically we've seen much more publicity-seeking and widespread, publically available info from Canadian explorers resulting in less negative effects, and a few obscure websites in the Twin Cities resulting in site closures and police investigations. The Twin cities also has a few more dumbasses, like our buddies the Christian Rockers and Mr whatshisname with the cave gunpowder, so the authorities down here are jumpier when it comes to tunnels and abandoned sites.

And as much as some people complain about the "difficulty" of getting full membership, it wouldn't take much effort for a property owner, city official, or police vandalism investigator to get full membership.

Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137
Macsbug 

Noble Donor


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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 32 on 11/21/2005 9:16 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by EatsTooMuchJam
The fact that I'm the one who spoke up doesn't mean that others don't feel the same way.

Yes, thank you ETMJ. I also feel strongly that the LDB is too accessable and too dangerous to local locations, and I support how the Twin Cities has been very wary about posting info to this public database.

I have other objections to the concept of a central database of locations and it's effect on the spirit and image of UE, but this is not the proper place to bicker over such things...

"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."
ofberenonehand 


Location: Minn-e-snow-ta


"Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve."

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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 33 on 11/21/2005 9:35 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I'm going to try to stay out of the opinions part of this argument, because, frankly, I could go either way on this. I'd just like to help clarify for people a little shocked by all this. Twin Cities folks are pretty protective of sites in general. It may explain why there are so many amazing and barely touched sites to explore.

At the same time, most of them gladly show new people around and make info accessible after just meeting someone face to face. Things are pretty open, but in a more "local" and "grassroots" sort of way. This may explain why the Twin Cities has such a large and cohesive exploration community.

So I'm not going to complain about anybody's views on this. I just want to make the local culture a bit clearer for everybody.

"That's What Government Is For; To Get In A Man's Way" -Mal
GreyKat 


Location: Minneapolis/St Paul MN
Gender: Male


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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 34 on 11/21/2005 10:11 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
I care less what the dude explores and I share my sandbox (although its really a slightly used litterbox wanna bite?) I do suggest in a nice way to use caution.
AV, you may be fine and dandy with things being open like that in Canada but thats not how it works here. The authorities are not so friendly when they have had to deal with idiots with gunpowder, other idiots with cherry bombs to blow up doors, even more idiots who didnt have enough sense to know better than to go into a cave that had a fire in it and died, and the list goes on. Oh yeah and dont forget the idiots who took mercury and threw it all over their town for shits and giggles causing the area to be evacuated and cleaned at the cost of god knows how much. We unfortunately seem to have more than our share of not so bright lightbulbs.
Posting the real names of the people you explore with is not cool in any situation unless you have that persons permission. Its simple respect.
Posting exact maps and ways to get into a location is asking for trouble no matter how secure you think the LDB is. Being the site admin of a large Twin Cities Zine and Forum I know how easily places that are not meant for the public eye are easily seen just by someone sharing login info, or word of mouth, or any other number of things. The exact same type of thing goes on here if you know about it or not.
Im not starting shit with you AV but unless you know all the problems we have to deal with here please dont start railing us for how we try to do things.
I have seen locations I have explored and posted here and on my site get trashed, its bound to happen in a large city. Some places that are really jewels are still pristine and we try to keep them that way. I had a guilty conscience because one of my locations on the LDB here and on my personal site was almost the cause of death for someone here recently. Only stupid blind drunken luck saved the person from death after a seven story fall. Was it because my LDB entry or my site entry? I dont know but it makes me think.
I would feel horrible if something I put out there were the cause of someone else being hurt.
We have a fairly large and tight knit community here (even if some of us dont play nice together and run with scissors). Whenever someone new comes wanting to explore we usually oblige and host them, or if they live here introduce them to others. Mynameisglass was given the same thing when he visited here by people in our community as have many others. We arent trying to stop him from exploring, and Im not trying to stop him from posting any location he wants. I do suggest using caution to not make it easy for vandals and taggers to access a site, as well as show some simple respect for fellow explorers.
You can see by not only the community here that also includes some of your site mods that things here are different for a reason. We are trying to protect ourselves as well as others.



Curious_George 


Location: Cambridge
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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 35 on 11/21/2005 11:09 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Posted by Freak
The LDB might work fine for Canada, where there's a looser attitude towards exploring on the part of officials.


You have got that right, the States has this bizarre "vibe" compared to Canadian U.E. In Winnipeg you can climb up the side of a building in front of the central police station and the cops will just shrug their shoulders and smoke some more pot.

Putting various things into the LBD during my younger years of exploring was probably one of the worst mistakes I have ever made. After seeing every building that I put on the LBD either burned to the ground or vandalised to hell I am no longer in support of this abomination.

Glass 


Location: Chicago


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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 36 on 11/21/2005 11:22 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Thanks, GreyKat. I like how you just threw your opinion out there.

Posting the real names of the people you explore with is not cool in any situation unless you have that persons permission. Its simple respect.

I did that?

Posting exact maps and ways to get into a location is asking for trouble no matter how secure you think the LDB is.

I did that too?

Mynameisglass was given the same thing when he visited here by people in our community as have many others

Some of the best fun from this year! I'm very obliged the atmosphere is as it is.

I do suggest using caution to not make it easy for vandals and taggers to access a site, as well as show some simple respect for fellow explorers.

I think I've been pretty reasonable. Nobody who looks at the entry can tell where it is unless they know before hand.

I'm from the Twin Cities but have only once explored with people from this community, so I'm feeling I missed some ground rules. After this fiasco I made a personal rule to myself to only post sites here that I discovered: I think everyone can work with that, no? As far as Hamm's goes I spent a lot of energy taking and posting those photos and I feel I'm entitled to share them under any identity. Changing the location and name and the other censoring that went into the page is a concession to ETMJ only because of his strong opinions on my post and my personal respect for him (his work stimulated my love for photography).

If there's further censoring that needs to go into the item, please share; I think you all know now that I'm reasonable if you have an problem with me or how I do things.

Glass 


Location: Chicago


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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 37 on 11/21/2005 11:32 PM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 

Posting exact maps and ways to get into a location is asking for trouble no matter how secure you think the LDB is.

I did that too?


Oh you meant the topo for PV I bet. I took that off. If I said anything hinting at an entry point it's not one. I might say "no lock" but it's likely welded on the inside (such as my Moorhead Power Plant post). I don't give instructions on how to get into a building.

OK! Thought i'd clarify.

GreyKat 


Location: Minneapolis/St Paul MN
Gender: Male


I have never been lost, but I will admit to being confused for several weeks.

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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 38 on 11/22/2005 1:55 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
Yep you did do some of that.
Its all good, just try to show a little caution is all.

Avatar-X 

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Re: Strohs Brewery burns!!
<Reply # 39 on 11/22/2005 4:32 AM >
Posted on Forum: UER Forum
 
You'll just have to face the facts that not every community wants all of their UE locations published in a searchable database format that someone else controls.


You act as if some person from half a world away is swooping in and revealing all your secrets without your permission. This is not the case. A local explorer from your own community created the location and decided what he wanted to exhibit there. UER did not force him to disclose any information he did not want to disclose.

UER's LDB is analagous to an art gallery. It's a place to showcase your work where it may be consumed by the public, or if you deem it necessary, a pre-selected thumbs-up portion of the public. The only items which appear in the gallery are the ones you pick. It's irrational to blame the gallery when an artist does a show you do not like.

Try to be a little bit more realistic here.

-av

huskies - such fluff.
UER Forum > Archived US: Great Lakes > Strohs Brewery burns!! (Viewed 2894 times)
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