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Server Time:
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 toeknee
     
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Gender: Male
The A(pe) Team
 |  |  | Crew or Group pages
< on 5/7/2005 8:57 PM >
|  | | | Hey, don't know if this has ever been mentioned before, but anyone else think it would be cool to have, like, crew pages? I know a lot of UE'ers go in groups, many of which have names and whatnot, and I though it'd be cool to be able to have a page on UER with your groups name, maybe a group photo or two, and then the ability to link to Locations that you've been to, or have pictures in or whatever.
I think this could be a neat addition to UER.
I imagine a few people here will just say, "Make your own website" which I know a lot of UE'ers do, but I still stand by my point that Av has come up with the best picture browsing and commenting system I've seen yet, so why try and make something that's already done better?
So yeah, anyone think this is a good idea, or am I just crazy? And then of course there's the question of whether or not Av would implement it.
I love it when you're brushing your teeth, and a little peice of food comes out of your mouth. THAT is instant gratification. Good to know all that work isn't for nothing. |
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kowalski
 
| | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 1 on 5/7/2005 9:17 PM >
|  | | | Can we have clans too? Can we put little 2-3 letter identifiers at the start of our names to proclaim our allegiance? [awww shit, Tux and company beat me to that (**)] Can we just start operating as partisan cells and e-mail our conquests directly to the landowners along with threats of further bloodshed?
Or can we maybe get past this whole locker room bragging bullshit and grow up a bit?
It's fine to have a semi-permanent group you explore with, in fact it's a good thing. It means you have people you can trust and count on, people that operate similarly to you with whom you mesh with. That's great. If I had such a group around me, I certainly wouldn't be looking to cheapen it by feeding it into a template form so that we could have a little trading card on UER.ca. Frankly, I wouldn't talk about the group as a group at all. I'd make a website showing our work -- in a safe, considered manner that wouldn't compromise our security or the condition of the sites we explore -- and I'd leave it at that.
In short, if you want a secret decoder ring, I'd suggest you figure out how to make it yourself. Hopefully you'll spend enough time on it that along the way you'll do enough thinking to realize that you don't need one at all, that you've already got the ring, and everything else is just counter-productive grandstanding.
As for UER, I'd hesitate to call it the best of anything. It's certainly not the best place to read stories or view photos of urban exploration, and it seems to be pretty secondary to just about every successful, long-standing local "crew"/group/clan/cult. The location database is a poor substitute for having your own site, or for actually telling stories about what you explored this weekend, which was what everyone did here back in the old days a couple of years ago. At it's best, it's a place to talk. I think it's high time everyone stopped imagining it as anything more than that.
(**) All love to UEM by the way. In my book they're the sort of people who know how to do this right.
[last edit 5/7/2005 9:42 PM by kowalski - edited 1 times]
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Kakesu
Location: England. Fun!
Gender: Male
printf("shiver in eternal darkness/n");
| |  | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 2 on 5/7/2005 9:37 PM >
| | | | I'm inclined to agree with Kowalski to a point. Inter-clan dick waving is not something to waste bandwidth over. It would be nice to have a convenient way of finding local groups though, but really anyone with any sense can accomplish this with the LDB. Still, it's a feature that I think has some potential. If it's seriously getting considered, it should really be a Level 3 kind of thing.
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toeknee
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Gender: Male
The A(pe) Team
| | | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 3 on 5/8/2005 12:22 AM >
| | | | Geez Kowalski...calm down. I had an idea, I never stood up and say, "HEY FOLKS, MY DICKS BIGGER THAN YOURS CAUSE I UE WITH SOME FRIENDS." I said it'd be neat to have a little database of groups that go together.
My biggest reason for the idea is for people who travel and like to UE in the areas they visit. It'd be pretty neat if you could look at the LBD to the place you're headed, find out what groups are in the area, and judging by what they've done, we're theyve been, and the stories they've posted, you can get a half decent idea of whether or not you'd like to do some UE'ing with them.
You react like I said this has to be done or something...All I did was present an idea, and you jumped all over me. That's a little fucked up.
You have a nice day.
I love it when you're brushing your teeth, and a little peice of food comes out of your mouth. THAT is instant gratification. Good to know all that work isn't for nothing. |
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-MisfitStyle-
 
| | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 4 on 5/8/2005 12:32 AM >
| | | | Posted by Mr. T(oeknee)
Geez Kowalski...calm down. I had an idea, I never stood up and say, "HEY FOLKS, MY DICKS BIGGER THAN YOURS CAUSE I UE WITH SOME FRIENDS." I said it'd be neat to have a little database of groups that go together.
My biggest reason for the idea is for people who travel and like to UE in the areas they visit. It'd be pretty neat if you could look at the LBD to the place you're headed, find out what groups are in the area, and judging by what they've done, we're theyve been, and the stories they've posted, you can get a half decent idea of whether or not you'd like to do some UE'ing with them.
You react like I said this has to be done or something...All I did was present an idea, and you jumped all over me. That's a little fucked up.
You have a nice day.
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Agreed. A valid idea was presented (albeit in the wrong forum..but who cares?) and you jumped down his throat. If you disagree, fine, but there's no need to be a dick about it.
Mr. T I think the idea is a valid one...maybe give Av a shout and see what he thinks? He's always looking for creative suggestions to improve the site.
"I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window."
Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs. |
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Drie
Rat-Hole Chic
Location: Hudson Valley NY
Gender: Female
bringing it back.
| | | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 5 on 5/8/2005 12:54 AM >
| | | | There's a lot to be said for having a group. You know each other well. You can anticipate what the reaction will be if there's trouble. You can host meets without too much stress (ie, my group Bored Middle Class hosted NEOPEX last year.) You can get a little competitive in things like the Great Race, which is hosted by the NEUEA. One person in your group can get really good at one thing, and then you have an awesome team to draw experience from- A team where you can be proud of what you can accomplish together.
I really don't think promoting your group has anything to do with locker room bullshit. I think promoting your regular group is great. I actually like the idea of group pages a lot. I come from an area of the country where most people are in some sort of organized group, and it works out really well for us. We dont dislike other groups. As a matter of fact, when two groups can get together, we generally are all really excited about it. There's no bullshit like "Oh, I can't explore with you, I belong to BMC". As a matter of fact, the Cereal Trespassers are great friends with BMC, and we also meet up with members of Ratfink and Fallout here and there. It actually helps you meet other explorers, because since everyone can't go exploring at the same time, you generally meet people separately and then get introduced.
On that note, warm fuzzies of BMC
Drie - www.synestheticlight.com
"In the absence of the living, there still exists a life." |
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Scaggs
Gender: Male
| | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 6 on 5/8/2005 1:46 AM >
| | | | Kowalski, you're a mod, so show some decorum and chill out. The guy was just asking a question, and a valid one at that. Posts like that one make others not want to contribute to this forum at all if they feel they are going to be jumped on for their suggestions. That makes you no worse than people who say "Don't criticize our president in times of war....blah-blah-blah."
In response to the original post, I think there are some definite advantages to having a group, whether organized or loose-knit. I have a loose-knit group, but I explore with lots of other people as well. It all just depends on the situation. Especially in bigger cities like Atlanta where Mr. T is from, it is paramount to have a group that knows eachother well, due to all the hazards that you will run into in a big city.
Is bringing that group to UER a bad idea? As long as they don't cause trouble, I don't see a problem with it. In fact, I like the idea. It helps people meet others in their respective areas.
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Avatar-X
 
Alpha Husky
Location: West Coast
Gender: Male
yay!
| | | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 7 on 5/8/2005 3:38 AM >
| | | | I'm also somewhat surprised at Kowalski's reaction.
It's definitely a potential idea to have a "group index" in which group names are listed along with location, and you can click to read a few details and link to the group's website, if available.
The UER was never ever designed to replace existing UE websites; it was designed to co-exist. A regional directory sorted by groups could prove very useful to some people.
Thoughts?
huskies - such fluff. |
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junkyard
Location: LaCrosse, WI
Gender: Male
Strategic Beer Command where the metal hits the meat.
| | | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 8 on 5/8/2005 3:40 AM >
| | | | I don't know about that at all, some people may not see the Beer Command as the supreme group simply because they have yet to face the wrath of The Mouse. It's not because he's to lazy to dish it out, he just has that many people to kill, he'll get around to it. But if everybody would agree up front that the SBC is better than every other worthless group out there, I think it could possibly work and might even be a fine idea.
I drink gasoline for breakfeast and beer for dinner!
Any problem can be licked with a case of beer and a few sticks of dynamite.
Strategic Beer Command ruling the desert since 1995 http://www.strategic-beer-command.com |
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-MisfitStyle-
| | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 9 on 5/8/2005 4:25 AM >
| | | | I think an index is a great idea.
"I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window."
Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs. |
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toeknee
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Gender: Male
The A(pe) Team
| | | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 10 on 5/8/2005 6:20 AM >
| | | | In my head, the page would really consist of nothing more than a picture or so, a list of names, and links to locations that the group has added something too, whether it be pictures or a story, or information.
I love it when you're brushing your teeth, and a little peice of food comes out of your mouth. THAT is instant gratification. Good to know all that work isn't for nothing. |
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andrea
Location: Baltimore MD
Gender: Female
Apparently, I am heinous.
| | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 11 on 5/8/2005 6:39 AM >
| | | | That actually would go along with the idea people have been asking about having multiple users given credit. Only one person would still get the credit, but you could see a group that did it. I am pretty sure most people on UER explore with a pretty consistent group of people.
This isn't boot camp and you are not a ninja. But you sure look like an idiot in that outfit.
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kowalski
| | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 12 on 5/8/2005 8:59 AM >
| | | | 1. I'd like to call attention to the part where I talked all about how great groups are if you've got them. The initial post wasn't about groups, it was about providing a directory of groups in a central location. That was what I was responding to.
2. I'd also like to suggest that my reply was full of decorum, despite being tinged with vehement skepticism. Sorry, I don't believe the idea has merit, and the fact that the goofy title below my name includes the word "Moderator" should not require that I babysit ideas that I don't feel are good ones, regardless of whether they come from the administration or some guy with 21 posts to his name. I'm not going to pull punches. I'd like people to think before they post stuff like this, really think about what they're actually looking for and the lengths that they're willing to go to to find it.
There's no need for a centralized directory of groups. There are several key reasons for my position on this. First, like everything else that has been centralized on this site, it's a serious security crisis waiting to happen. The new access limitations have not made this site secure, it's foolish to think so. If one day there is a serious, serious, serious crisis having to do with this site and national law enforcement authorities in the United States or Canada, I really don't think that you want your group to be on an official list that's part of the backbone of this thing. I'm not being paranoid, I'm being realistic. The chances may be remote now, but they increase with time and that ever growing, increasingly anonymous and questionable user pool. But this isn't my main point, so please don't bother responding to it, this is just something to think about.
More importantly, if I was in a group I wouldn't want to be listed in a directory that random people were using in order to make travel plans. If you were visiting my area, I would want you to do actual research, I would want to be a known entity to you and I would want to know who you were before I played host. Such a directory is a rather poor replacement for actually bothering to get to know people and travelling to meet up with them because you trust and admire them rather than because you looked them up in a UE yellow pages.
Third, it privileges groups over individuals and risks skewing the centre of gravity of everything else towards that. Most of the best-respected explorers don't belong to formalized, publicly-aligned groups at all. They may have specific people they explore with all the time, they may very well operate as a group in everything but name. But they don't publicize themselves as such and they shouldn't have to. It's the exploration that should come first and it's what all too often this site and its active participants forget. All the chrome just distracts from that.
You want to figure out who's operating where? There's a host of ways to find out that force you to actually think and read and talk to people. The worldwide links section of infiltration.org and the webring encompass the great majority of websites that are out there beyond the world of UER. Within the UER community, there's far more to gain from actually reading a regional forum for awhile than ever could be conveyed by this group list thing.
The problem is that too many people are lazy and figure that information should just be served up pre-collated for their consumption, and that see UER as the beginning and end of the urban exploration community. This place was best when it was simply a set of discussion forums. Everything that's come since then has cheapened that discussion in a neverending ambition to be more things. And as part of that, it's both mind-boggling and entirely understandable to watch people here constantly, consistently look for the easy out.
What Drie's talking about is great. I agree with her to great lengths. But what she's talking about has happened through an extended process of interaction that had nothing to do with paging through a UER yellow pages one day. And as with other "groups" that I've spent enriching time exploring with, I'm sure that what makes groups in New England compelling and entertaining and reassuring to explore with are the individual people within them that one day decided to call themselves collectively by a funny name. That's certainly the reason I'm hoping to have the chance to explore New York again with Drie and company this summer; the flip-side is that not knowing the people behind the Cereal Trespassers is precisely why they're not on my radar screen at all despite any number of mentions here and in personal conversations with Drie.
As far as I can tell, a central group directory as proposed in this thread will provide no information of actual value and has the potential to mystify and devalue what is actually important about groups, explorers and exploration. It's another regularized, rationalized central structure that forces UE and explorers into a box despite all claims and assurances to the contrary. And it's exactly what this community and this hobby do not need.
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Scaggs
Gender: Male
| | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 13 on 5/8/2005 2:31 PM >
| | | | Posted by Avatar-X
I'm also somewhat surprised at Kowalski's reaction.
It's definitely a potential idea to have a "group index" in which group names are listed along with location, and you can click to read a few details and link to the group's website, if available.
The UER was never ever designed to replace existing UE websites; it was designed to co-exist. A regional directory sorted by groups could prove very useful to some people.
Thoughts?
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I don't think it would replace the original concept of UER, merely augment it. I know around here in Columbia, we have a good number of explorers. I pretty much explore with all of them, but they don't explore with eachother, etc. So this way, we could unify. Also, maybe this crew idea could double as a "meeting place" sort of section as well. I know Av already has the events section, but I always like to get to know people before I go to an event.
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Scaggs
Gender: Male
| | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 14 on 5/8/2005 2:33 PM >
| | | | Posted by kowalski
2. Sorry, I don't believe the idea has merit, and the fact that the goofy title below my name includes the word "Moderator" should not require that I babysit ideas that I don't feel are good ones, regardless of whether they come from the administration or some guy with 21 posts to his name.
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And he, along with many others, will remain with a low number of posts if you keep browbeating him when he asks a valid question.
[/end of arguing]
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parallax
Location: Sydney, Australia.
Gender: Male
Cave Clan are go!!
| |  | | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 15 on 5/8/2005 3:07 PM >
| | | | Cave Clans dick is bigger than all of you! 
Clans/groups/cliques/organisations are a great way to pool resources. Cave Clan has through its members have found probably over 1000 locations in Australia, not to mention Siologens efforts O/S!
Just beware of infighting, power struggles and mistrust. It can really kill a good thing.
Cave Clan Australia
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Macsbug
Noble Donor
Location: St. Paul, MN
Gender: Male
Safety First!
| | | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 16 on 5/8/2005 3:39 PM >
| | | | I'm with kowolski. It gets back to UER being the wall-mart of UE, and having some of everything, but ruins local flavor and makes everything bland. I know this is not Av's intention, but with the size of UER, it is a unfortunate side effect. I see no reason to have this feature, and I think it could further homogenize and take away from a local UE feel.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 17 on 5/8/2005 8:10 PM >
|  | | | I don't think there's any reason to do this either. I would like to see people actually put their location in their profiles, that is what would really make it easy to meet other local explorers. But people that don't explore anything to begin with certainly don't want others to know they are in the area and prove that fact... So remember kids, be hardcore and too important to put your location in your profile.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Burzum
Noble Donor
| | | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 18 on 5/8/2005 9:04 PM >
| | | | wow. uhm.
kowalski, that was very unnecessary - and in my book, pouring scorn on another's idea is still being a jerk, even if you manage to do it without resorting to swearing or name calling. a bit more sophisticated, maybe, than the average trolling, but far below the standards that a moderator should be held to. besides, once you distill all the bs out of your rant, it could have been handled with a simple - 'no, i do not think this a good idea'.
i see no problem with this - and some of the people objecting are, in fact, members of extensively hyped UE groups. so can anyone explain why this seemingly reasonable (if not necessarily useful) feature justifies such contempt? preferably in civil terms?
www.rouskrew.com
because evil won't just do itself. |
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Crew or Group pages
<Reply # 19 on 5/8/2005 9:17 PM >
| | | | Being a member of an extensively hyped group does not mean you feel the need to have a big list of groups consolidated. As the core of one of those groups, I get more than enough people contacting me about joining my group, and really that's not what it's about. I don't have a group so I can give every guy that's heard about exploring a *membership*. The people in my group, i've met, like as explorers and like as people. If I didn't, they wouldn't be in my group.
It's not needed, I see it much as kowalski does, it will bring out more little clan kiddies like a freaking online gaming site...
As I said previously, people actually putting their bloody location in their profiles would be way more useful for others finding people in their area than this group page idea.
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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