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Server Time:
2024-05-02 08:41:45
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 Guy With Hat
    
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
Balconies shmalconies.
 |  |  |  | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 120 on 3/18/2005 1:46 AM >
|  | | | Posted by Chainsaw
This encourages people to share their locations so they can see other peoples locations, participate in conversations so they can get access to more areas of the board - it's not very well jelled at this point - but a "pay for play" system would probably suit the needs of most active users fairly well.
I might not trust some folks on the site but really, if they contribute they should have access, I have a lot less problem with someone I don't like who has contributed a lot to the site viewing my locations than I do with someone I don't like who doesn't contribute squat.
I also like the idea of someone being complicit with our actions - if someone posts a location they have trespassed in they open themselves to as much risk as I have and sharing our information with each other is safe - sure the armchair explorer misses out, but he isn't taking any risk either, by sharing information about locations we are taking risks twice and that really should count for something.
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I understand where you're going with this, but this site is supposed to be an open resource to those interested in urban exploration, whether they do so from the comfort of their own homes or whether they're actually out there taking the risks. The idea of putting up restrictions on the forums/UDB based on trust is to protect the locations and the explorers who documented those locations. If I understand this project correctly, that's the only reason we'd be putting up these restrictions, not to create some tit for tat value system.
Putting restrictions on the site is more likely to annoy, frustrate and confuse people more than encourage them to go out and find their own locations and doing their own exploration. Now you may maintain that the causality is straight here, but in my own personal experience, putting in some system like that is much more likely to be dissuasive than persuasive. They will think we're a bunch of secretive stuck-up snobs. That's almost antithetical to the reason UER is around, which is to share these locations, and to allow easy access to them.
So really, we just have to keep in mind a few things: anonymous viewers or newcomers may or may not be people who see urban explorers as trespassers. These people may or may not be potential thieves or vandals. And we have to take that into account and create ways to limit access to sensitive data. The size of UER as a site means that a lot of things that would work for smaller sites won't work here, and vice versa. However, whether or not you contribute to the site shouldn't be an issue. If you haven't been able to find a location, say if all the locations in your area have been found and explored (Toronto has been scoured pretty closely, seeing as we're the home of both Infiltration and UER), you shouldn't be penalized. I've only found one or two Toronto locations. As well, what if you don't have a camera, or aren't gifted with the time to go out and explore as much as you'd like? The problem with contribution as a metric is that some people just can't contribute as much as others. It's not because they don't want to, or that they're taking advantage of UER for their own purposes, but they just don't have the time or resources to make as many contributions as they'd like.
[Edit: Added the second sentence in the second paragraph.]
[last edit 3/18/2005 1:50 AM by Guy With Hat - edited 1 times]
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ex-goose-villager
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
| | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 121 on 3/18/2005 4:20 AM >
| | | | Posted by White Rabbit
You're right, but... We do need speak out when a security feature isn't really doing anything for security, even if Av has graciously spent a lot of time coding it. Otherwise, we're just going to end up with more hassle for the users that doesn't really serve any purpose. And, as much as I liked this new system, I think we all know it wasn't really doing anything for security.
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Frankly, I'm not surprised that this scheme isn't working out. The fault is not with Avatar-X, not by a long shot. If he were to solve this problem, he would be able to retire on the fortune he'd make from it. I've studied cryptography and related security issues for several years now, and the problem we're all trying to solve here -- i.e. trust -- is one of the hardest problems there is.
"You're a catastrophe... On your watch we've lost almost all of our allies, the budget surplus, four airliners, two trade centers, a piece of the Pentagon and the city of New Orleans. Maybe your just not lucky. I'm not saying you don't love this country. I'm just wondering how much worse it could be if you were on the other side. Yes, God does speak to you. And he's saying: Take a hint." B. Maher |
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Nosferatu Von
Location: Ancaster
Gender: Male
| | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 122 on 3/18/2005 4:45 AM >
| | | | I have a trust related question:
Suppose Explorer X was trusted by Explorer Y and vice versa. Suppose one of them does something 'un-explorer like' (sets a site on fire, picks his nose in public, doesn't being his Urbanaut ID card, etc), does that mean that BOTH of the explorers are going to be shunned in the forum when the sewing circle that is the UE community gets wind of it and the flame war begins?
Seems your Phenomena is a Phenoma-NOT. |
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Down State
This member has been banned.
| | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 123 on 3/18/2005 4:54 AM >
| | | | I'll still love you no matter what you do.
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NoSuchPerson
 
Stop, or I'll ask you again!
| | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 124 on 3/18/2005 10:21 AM >
| | | | Posted by Avatar-X
Alright, the trusted system isn't working. We're probably going to scrap it.
The admins and I are discussing alternate ideas, but at this point it doesn't look promising. It's just way too difficult to separate people like this.
-av
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With an online community like UER, you can *NEVER* have a reliable trust system set up.
Instead of concentrating on who we should and shouldn't trust, how about we concentrate on getting rid of the people who DO cause trouble. Just because someone isn't trusted doesn't mean they aren't trustworthy. We should be looking for the BPM's and that kind of thing.
Give it a rest and don't try to make something that, in the end, you know isn't going to work.
-Ex
Unit calling radio say again? |
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MatC
Nobler Donor
Location: ENY
Gender: Male
Accepted everywhere
| |  | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 125 on 3/18/2005 1:38 PM >
| | | | The major problems with the current system are:
1. It is difficult to establish a definition of "trust" that everyone will accept - one that keeps LEOs and property owners out, but lets genuine explorers in
2 . People who are not currently known due to newbishness, physical location, lurking, etc. may find it difficult to become trusted
We've tried a solution that goes from the bottom up and it appears not to have worked because some people gave away trust like candy, while others gave it sparingly. There is no easy way to solve this problem of individuality - you can't force someone to justify every reason they trust someone. Well, you can, but it would be laborious and serve no purpose.
So, a bottom-up system didn't work. What about a partial top-down system? Basically, you just take the current system and zero out all of the trust. Then, give the mods a few days to go through and make a full accounting of those people they trust. Then, give each person trusted by a mod limited trusting capabilities. Say, three trusts per person. That will force people to choose users in whom they place the most trust. As a way to avoid people "wasting" their trust on super-trusted users, once someone reaches the threshold of A-level trust, and someone else lists them as trusted, the new trustor's name gets added to their list, but they still retain one of their three "trusts" to give to someone else.
Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of what happens when someone runs out of trusts and they still have friends or trusted UE companions who haven't yet received trust. Hmmm. Maybe a "trust wish list" can be established, or something, or maybe people can receive additional "trusts" via some algorithm.
Anyway, it's a suggestion. I'm not sure that there will ever be a solution which will truly let everyone feel as if their favorite locations are safe enough to post. Perhaps the trust system, if there ever is one, will be nothing more than a yardstick for who's settled into the community and who isn't. It's like the SATs -- if you do really well, people assume you're pretty smart. But even if you don't do well, that doesn't necessarily mean you're not smart.
-- Mat
"We shall not cease from exploration / And the end of all our exploring / Will be to arrive where we started / And know the place for the first time."
- T.S. Eliot, excerpt from "Little Gidding" |
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Chainsaw
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Underground, Colorado
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 126 on 3/18/2005 2:05 PM >
| | | | Ya know of all the ideas being bandied about I think I like the idea of LDB locations being anonymous the best.
Not the actual locations themselves being anonymous like "house" or "grain mill" but the poster being anonymous, at least if they choose to be.
Include a "PM Contributor" button. Basically, whenever you start a new location, story, gallery or whatever you have the option to make it anonymous. When you reply to photo comments or in threads in that LDB location your id is posted as "Contributor" - of course mods will know and see who is who. People can keep their LDB stars, and you can look at their profile to see what locations they have posted that are not anonymous.
We can keep our locations in the LDB this way without really exposing our identities. I know some people post in the LDB to satisfy their egos, that's why it should be optional.
If you post it anonymously and someone requests information about the site and you DON'T want to share it them they can't harass you over it, or at least only in the location itself through comments or threads and mods can handle those instances, but at lest it doesn't spill over into emails and phone calls and cops...
If some property owner or law enforcement type does find the location they aren't provided with the email address, website address, IM address and coordinates of the person that provided the content.
We can continue with the private/public system we have where contributors can decide wether the location is available to non-registered users.
Quid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
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Akane
Noble Donor
Location: London, Ontario
| | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 127 on 3/18/2005 3:43 PM >
| | | | Posted by ExKa|iBuR
With an online community like UER, you can *NEVER* have a reliable trust system set up. |
Very true. Any reliable trust system would have to reduce the size of the community dramatically. Even if something was implemented, there'd still be leaks and security breaches (however that's spelt.)
| Instead of concentrating on who we should and shouldn't trust, how about we concentrate on getting rid of the people who DO cause trouble. Just because someone isn't trusted doesn't mean they aren't trustworthy. We should be looking for the BPM's and that kind of thing. |
This would lead to less of a buddy-buddy system and more of a witch hunt. I'm not so sure which is better.
| Give it a rest and don't try to make something that, in the end, you know isn't going to work. |
Well, of course a witch hunt wouldn't work.
What SHOULD be implemented is something simple, severely limit all new users and people who aren't logged in and put a robots.txt file to get this place off of the search engines. This won't reduce the number of new users any more than making all of the good stuff level 3. Many of us wouldn't have joined if it wasn't for the LDB. There is easier ways to eliminiate new users without alienating the ones who have been around but have been quiet about it.
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Akane
Noble Donor
Location: London, Ontario
| | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 128 on 3/18/2005 3:56 PM >
| | | | Posted by Chainsaw
Ya know of all the ideas being bandied about I think I like the idea of LDB locations being anonymous the best.
Not the actual locations themselves being anonymous like "house" or "grain mill" but the poster being anonymous, at least if they choose to be. |
I like that idea too.
I removed my LDB entries after a site owner e-mailed me threatening to call the police. He was quick too, I think it took under a week. I got carried away and removed all of my entries (there was only 2 of them.) I've considered putting one of them back up.
It pissed me off that after spending hours uploading pictures on dialup and researching better for history and junk, I had to wipe it. I wasn't happy, but I don't need the police looking for me either.
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nightbird
  
Girl Moderator
Location: Buffalo, NY
Gender: Female
Gone abortin, BRB
| | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 129 on 3/18/2005 4:02 PM >
| | | | Posted by Chainsaw
Ya know of all the ideas being bandied about I think I like the idea of LDB locations being anonymous the best.
Not the actual locations themselves being anonymous like "house" or "grain mill" but the poster being anonymous, at least if they choose to be.
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Well, the option to make the "owner" anonymous, as well as any gallery owner is in place.
WTF indeed. |
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oCtAnE
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Gender: Male
EXPLORER AT LARGE
| | | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 130 on 3/18/2005 4:06 PM >
| | | | Posted by Chainsaw
So, here's yet another suggestion.
Clans - I don't know if you've participated in any boards run for specific games or game communities but they have private clan sections. Each clan decides who they will admit and who will get access to what information.
Perhaps we should break up content availability by some kind of clan system, you can be in as many clans as will take you and everyone is a member of the UER clan where we have generic information and newbies can snoop around.
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The idea of a clan system is totally ridiculous. Before you know it, we'll have 'clans' saying they're better than other 'clans', as well as discrimination between clans and such. And what if someone doesn't conform to any of the clans? What if the majority of people don't want to join a clan? What if clans start flame wars over mediocre issues? Clan vs. clan?
Clans aren't the answer. Let's just keep everything the way it was before these changes happened. With the amount of members on UER.ca, why not make more moderators to accomodate the size of the populace? If there are more mods keeping an eye on things, perhaps the security issues will go away.
-Octane
FUELED BY OCTANE. |
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oCtAnE
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Gender: Male
EXPLORER AT LARGE
| | | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 131 on 3/18/2005 4:13 PM >
| | | | Posted by Chainsaw
How about a brownie point system - I like guy's idea of trust levels and such - but how about this.
We could dust off the old "rate this post" system - basically each post or location you post you earn "points" based on how other people rate it - to view a location you have to spend some of your points. |
That is almost unfeasable as the clan idea. Now people are going to become "point whores" just to get a higher rating to be able to gain more access. Point and rating systems DON'T WORK. I've seen the extreme downside of this kind of idea. It's not pretty.
This encourages people to share their locations so they can see other peoples locations, participate in conversations so they can get access to more areas of the board - it's not very well jelled at this point - but a "pay for play" system would probably suit the needs of most active users fairly well.
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That will more than likely encourage people to be complete fools and go on sprees of convos, postings, etc. Like I said in my previous post, the way everything was before all this started was the best. Let's not alter what works. We have a good thing going. Why ruin it?
-Octane
FUELED BY OCTANE. |
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oCtAnE
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Gender: Male
EXPLORER AT LARGE
| | | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 132 on 3/18/2005 4:15 PM >
| | | | Posted by ExKa|iBuR
With an online community like UER, you can *NEVER* have a reliable trust system set up.
Instead of concentrating on who we should and shouldn't trust, how about we concentrate on getting rid of the people who DO cause trouble. Just because someone isn't trusted doesn't mean they aren't trustworthy. We should be looking for the BPM's and that kind of thing.
Give it a rest and don't try to make something that, in the end, you know isn't going to work.
-Ex
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Couldn't have said it better myself. Cheers Exkal.
-Octane
FUELED BY OCTANE. |
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Chainsaw
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Underground, Colorado
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 133 on 3/18/2005 4:40 PM >
| | | | Posted by Octane
That is almost unfeasable as the clan idea. Now people are going to become "point whores" just to get a higher rating to be able to gain more access. Point and rating systems DON'T WORK. I've seen the extreme downside of this kind of idea. It's not pretty.
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You are keeping up with the thread and realize we are having a brain storming session where we are trying to encourage everyone to come up with some kind of suggestion throwing ideas out to see if we can find something that might work?
Coming in and shitting on everyones idea is kind of counter productive, isn't it? Your opinion has been noted, what are your ideas to fix the problem?
[last edit 3/18/2005 4:41 PM by Chainsaw - edited 1 times]
Quid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
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TurboZutek
King Dick
Location: Scotland
Gender: Male
Giant octo-penised rapephant
| |  | | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 134 on 3/18/2005 6:45 PM >
| | | | I turned to GIS for some inspiration on solving this complex problem, and here's what I came up with:
There... I hope that clears the problem up!
Chris...
We all had ostriches. My dad had an ostrich farm! I remember one day someone came in and said the high altitude bombing of Kosovo had been a limited success, so we all went out and celebrated… by killing an ostrich and boiling it in kiwi fruit. |
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gambino
Location: Toronto, ON
Gender: Male
| | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 135 on 3/18/2005 9:28 PM >
| | | | Ahh, now it all makes sense....
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Ninjalicious
Gone, but always with us
Location: Toronto
| | | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 136 on 3/18/2005 9:31 PM >
|  | | | Posted by Guy With Hat
In terms of trust, perhaps who trusts who could be something private. You would be able to see who you trust, but you wouldn't be able to see who trusts you.
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I like this part of your scheme very much, *whatever* system is finally adopted. It's a really good idea.
Trusters should be "secret admirers". This way, there will be less you-scratch-my-back (or absolutely-everyone's-back, in some cases), and-I'll-scratch-yours. People could SAY they're going to trust you and then not actually do it. It's like having secret ballots in an election -- it helps protect against corruption.
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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oCtAnE
Location: TORONTO, CANADA
Gender: Male
EXPLORER AT LARGE
| | | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 137 on 3/18/2005 9:34 PM >
| | | | Posted by Chainsaw
Your opinion has been noted, what are your ideas to fix the problem?
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One of my ideas, which I had stated in a previous post:
Why not add more moderators to combat the issue of growing threats and whatnot? It would also certainly help regulate the forum and LDB as well.
-Octane
FUELED BY OCTANE. |
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ofberenonehand
Location: Minn-e-snow-ta
"Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve."
| | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 138 on 3/18/2005 9:39 PM >
| | | | I actually think this system does some good that more moderators certa
inly could not. Even if it becomes easy to get trusted status it is still a deterent to vandals and property owners. In the very least you have to make yourself known and spend a bit of time on the site. It will not be possible to just register and browse through for what you need. As long as the mods stay on top of anybody posting threads asking for trusted status, it will achieve that goal at least.
"That's What Government Is For; To Get In A Man's Way" -Mal |
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Ninjalicious
Gone, but always with us
Location: Toronto
| | | Re: Part A of Trusted System arrives
<Reply # 139 on 3/18/2005 9:40 PM >
| | | | I don't think we need more moderators -- there are already a whole bundle, and every new one added compromises user privacy a little further.
Ninj
http://www.infiltration.org
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