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 Greysand
  
Noble Donor
Location: USA - California
Gender: Male
 |  |  | Local punks giving you a bad image..
< on 7/24/2003 4:12 AM >
|  | | | *grumble* Here I was, all ready to bust out with a kick ass new update including all kinda cool military shit. When I hear about some punk kids busting into one of the local bases and calling themselfs "explorers"... They fucked up the place big time and did a lot of damage getting in..
Now I'm getting people blaming my group for this shit. "This I don't need." If I knew who they were, I'd just beat-em till they understood.. problem is - I don't.
Just needed to vent to people who would understand.. Anyone else have this problem?
-edited to include nifty image-
[last edit 7/23/2003 11:16 PM by Greysand - edited 1 times]
I don't mind Drain fog... I like to see what I breathe. |
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MacGyver
Location: St Paul, Minnesota
Gender: Male
"Someone go find me a paperclip, a D-cell battery, and a cheese grater"
| | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 1 on 7/24/2003 5:11 AM >
| | | | If I were you, (and I haven't dug through your site) I'd change your writeups to strip location details. I try to show only the inside of locations that could be wrecked by those types of people. Don't give the precise name or location of a site.
Like a fiend with his dope / a drunkard his wine / a man will have lust for the lure of the mine
"If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent." |
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Detroit
 
Moderator
Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal
Gender: Male
4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide
| |  | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 2 on 7/24/2003 1:43 PM >
| | | | I think the problem of punks tearing up places is universal. I could never understand peoples need to destroy things but I guess it is a fact of life. Idiots abound. These fucknuts certainly do give real "explorers" a bad name especially when the have the gall to actually call themselves explorers.
(I will probably get flamed for saying the following... I am preparing a rock to go hide under...)
I am beginning to think that many legitimate (being that they look but don't trash), but inexperienced UErs are doing as much damage to our collective reputation as the punks (Please insert flame here)...
Look at it this way, newbies read about the exploits of some of the more experienced explorers out there and instantly think "hey I can do that", without any real experience. Since they have no experience being stealthy and in most cases do little if any scouting, they inevitably get caught or at least noticed. As a result, security gets beefed up at places (live sites), local law enforcement get notified that they should be on the look out for activity at long dead sites, and people who live near normally quiet sites start complaining to the city that “something should be done” with “that” abandoned place…
Obviously there is no way to control who calls themselves an Urban Explorer but I think perhaps a new item should be added to the Urban Exploration code of conduct.
- Properly assess the risk of getting caught (because you are an inexperienced dumbass) before attempting any exploration. You should not attempt an exploration if you have any doubts as to your ability to:
a) talk yourself out of the situation (have a good background knowledge of the site and don't carry B&E tools or weapons)
b) use your knowledge of the site to run away or hide
c) not alert security to your presence because of your stealthy skills (gained by pulling off gradually increasingly difficult explorations, not the stealth you “think” you have because of your natural, god given greatness).
Come to think of it, someone should start a North American Urban Exploration Association. Something similar to sports associations…. Okay that is unrealistic, but it would be cool to have someway to differentiate to the public the difference between a card carrying “Certified Urban Explorer”, and some punks who use the title explorers to try to justify going into places and trashing them. Members would have to pass the certification requirements (written exam), pay dues, swear to never carry B&E tools, never steal ANYTHING while exploring, and never destroy any property. Those found in violation of the code of ethics would have their membership revoked.
Having an association would facilitate holding conferences and might enable “us” to get better rates for equipment, insurance, etc.
Ah… it’ll never happen.
I am going under my rock now…
The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. |
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Ferret
Location: Toronto
| | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 3 on 7/24/2003 2:17 PM >
| | | | Detroit, I'm not going to flame you. That was very well put.
I used to belong to a revolver club, and we had a catch-all phrase for the conduct of members both on and off the range. Rephrased for ue, it simply stated:
At all times, both while exploring and outside exploring, conduct yourself in a manner that never reflects badly on urban exploration.
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Detroit
Moderator
Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal
Gender: Male
4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide
| | | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 4 on 7/24/2003 2:44 PM >
| | | | Posted by Ferret
At all times, both while exploring and outside exploring, conduct yourself in a manner that never reflects badly on urban exploration.
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Beautiful...
The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. |
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Frost
Location: K.Dot
Gender: Male
No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!
| | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 5 on 7/24/2003 3:09 PM >
| | | | I think something happened after Generation X... it appears that the majority of Gen Y'ers have this urge to destroy and act in a destructive manner.
I can't stand it, it drives me up the wall that they can have such disregard... I saw a bunch of kids kicking one of those milk cartons across a parking lot and towards one of the busiest roads in my city yesterday... how stupid and what the hell is the point in that?!
When we were kids... well I have to admit we did destroy some things but really, we didn't go around wrecking everything and causing shit and starting things on fire... we just hung out and did whatever.... someone please tell me what the hell is wrong with them today?! Did something go wrong with their DNA configuration after GenX?
That's gotta be the answer heh...
Anyways, I agree Detroit, nice post... totally good, no flames 
Edit: Oh and ferret... good saying, I like it.
[last edit 7/24/2003 10:10 AM by Frost - edited 1 times]
Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. |
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Crossfire
Location: Kay-Dub
Gender: Male
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.
| |  |  | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 6 on 7/24/2003 3:28 PM >
| | | | Posted by K-os
I think something happened after Generation X... it appears that the majority of Gen Y'ers have this urge to destroy and act in a destructive manner.
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Careful dude, you are 'Generation Y'. So am I. Generation X'ers are, at the youngest, in their mid-thirties by now. We're talking about people on the tail end of 'Gen Y'. Some of these kids are the children of Gen X'ers.
I'm a firm believer that fault lies with the parents - not music, television, movies or video games. Some parents just seem to sit back, let their kids do whatever the hell they want, and then cry the blues about how music is destroying society when those kids become juvenile delinquents.
But I do agree that kids - meaning people ranging from 8 to 18 years old, give or take - are becoming more destructive and violent.
TMC.
Disgruntled. |
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Detroit
Moderator
Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal
Gender: Male
4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide
| | | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 7 on 7/24/2003 3:31 PM >
| | | | Thanx for not broiling me guys. I am happy to see that I am not the only one that feels this way.
I think the the messed up DNA might have something to do with the depleted ozone layer... 
The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. |
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Frost
Location: K.Dot
Gender: Male
No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!
| | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 8 on 7/24/2003 3:37 PM >
| | | | Posted by The Mighty Crossfire
Posted by K-os
I think something happened after Generation X... it appears that the majority of Gen Y'ers have this urge to destroy and act in a destructive manner.
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Careful dude, you are 'Generation Y'. So am I. Generation X'ers are, at the youngest, in their mid-thirties by now. We're talking about people on the tail end of 'Gen Y'. Some of these kids are the children of Gen X'ers.
I'm a firm believer that fault lies with the parents - not music, television, movies or video games. Some parents just seem to sit back, let their kids do whatever the hell they want, and then cry the blues about how music is destroying society when those kids become juvenile delinquents.
But I do agree that kids - meaning people ranging from 8 to 18 years old, give or take - are becoming more destructive and violent.
TMC.
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No no no... Gen Y began in the 80's....
Gen X ends at the end of the 70's
and then the Millenia Children are the newest Gen
and I agree with that parent thing, a lot of people can't parent today, BUT it is societies fault too... hell they don't allow you to discipline anymore, everything has to be all Fluffy with a Silver Lining if you want to discipline and the kids walk all over the parents...
There's nothing wrong with me and I had my ass spanked and the belt and all that shit... what a crock of crap.... damn laws....
/me hates ALL laws... stupid gov't
Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. |
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Freak
Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 9 on 7/24/2003 3:37 PM >
| | | | Posted by K-os
I think something happened after Generation X... it appears that the majority of Gen Y'ers have this urge to destroy and act in a destructive manner.
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It's the human race's self-destruct gene, society will soon crumble into anarchy and punks in leather fighting in steel domes!
Seriously, I think a lot of kids have a problem with personal responsibility and accountability, they think that if no one sees them then it's ok to do something, or that if they don't get caught it's acceptable. Sort of a Jackass (the TV show) mentality. It's not just UE sites either, kids drive around and shoot cars and smash mailboxes all the time. I'm glad I don't have a car, since a few weeks ago someone went and smashed the windsheilds of about 6 cars on my street. A lot of the problem is bad or apathetic parenting, but the media and the other usual suspects are probably partly to blame.
Damn kids these days anyway, need to learn some respect! (and this from someone who's turning 21 on saturday).
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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Caput_58
Location: Virginia, USA
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 10 on 7/24/2003 4:04 PM >
| | | | Actually, as much as I hate to admit it, I do understand why idiots come in to a pristine site and destroy it. There is a certain satisfaction smashing glass, shattering wood, etc. Just last weekeend, I was at a friend's moving out party, and he let people go wild with a hammer on an old UPS [computer parts] that he had. Very fun, especially while drunk.
I think almost all young people get a certain thrill out of breaking things. The difference between vandals and urban explorers is that urban explorers have enough respect for the site to override the primitive urge to smashy smashy.
As I see it there are four ways to prevent vandalism to a site. One, you could educate the vandals to the value of the site and give them the same respect for it that you have. Not very practical, since they may not be convinced, and even if they are, the pool of potential vandals is just too large to get to them all. Second, you can intimidate and discourage vandals with violence or threats of violence. In theory this could give the site a reputation with other potential vandals and scare them off. But if they realize you did it to protect the site, it could backfire and cause them to burn the place down as a way of teaching you a lesson. Third, you can keep the site secret. If they don't know about it, it should be safe. The problem is, the local hoodlums often know about sites before the UE'ers do, and once the hoodlums find out about a site, its impossible to get the genie back into the bottle. Finally, you can secure the site. Block up the entrances, put locks on unlocked doors, or notify the owners to the problem and hope they do the same. While effective, this option is unpopular as it denies the site to the 'Good UE'ers' as well as the hoodlums.
So whats the right answer? Hell if I know. I just hope I can get to a site early, preserve it in pictures, and resign myself to the fact that everything falls down eventually.
All this does give me an idea. In virginia, the entrances to caves (another fragile irreplaceable environment) have metal signs outlining the state cave law (basically, don't break, don't disturb, don't steal).
We could make up similiar signs and place them at common site entrances, asking visitors to have respect for the site, don't break, disturb, steal, have open fires, etc. Sign it 'The National Association of Urban Explorers' or whatever. Throw in a website link at the bottom for people who want to learn more.
Caput_58
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Detroit
Moderator
Location: Ottawa /Gatineau /Montreal
Gender: Male
4-aminophenol and 2-5% potassium hydroxide
| | | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 11 on 7/24/2003 4:16 PM >
| | | | Posted by Caput_58
We could make up similiar signs and place them at common site entrances, asking visitors to have respect for the site, don't break, disturb, steal, have open fires, etc. Sign it 'The National Association of Urban Explorers' or whatever. Throw in a website link at the bottom for people who want to learn more.
Caput_58
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Nice Idea....
The end of the beginning is the beginning of the end. |
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Blueskunk
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Gender: Female
Mmmm... sanitariums.
| | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 13 on 7/24/2003 4:35 PM >
| | | | Posted by Caput_58
All this does give me an idea. In virginia, the entrances to caves (another fragile irreplaceable environment) have metal signs outlining the state cave law (basically, don't break, don't disturb, don't steal).
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Thing is, those signs don't really work. I'm involved quite a bit in caving, and the best way to protect caves are to make sure people don't access them in the first place, unfortunatly. On an island I like to visit, they had big signs telling people not to disturb the bats in the caves, and ended up with all the bats dying or being scared away by all the idiots tromping in to see them because they knew they were there. They didn't think they were disturbing it (because one person 'doesn't hurt') but they were. Now they have the caves barred off in the entrance and have moved the signs away from the caves with bats in them.
In the same way, I think a sign saying 'Please leave this site as you found it for others' is just asking for trouble. I can't see a way of having it worded that wouldn't incite a certain 'fuck you' mentality to just cause more damage.
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Crossfire
Location: Kay-Dub
Gender: Male
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.
| | | | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 14 on 7/24/2003 4:54 PM >
| | | | Posted by K-os
No no no... Gen Y began in the 80's....
Gen X ends at the end of the 70's
and then the Millenia Children are the newest Gen
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I don't necessarily want to argue semantics with you, K-os, but I think you're a little off with your dates. Generation X (by Douglas Coupland) was published in 1991. Back then, pundits were also using that term "20something". Which means, that if in 1990 Gen-X'ers were 20, they're around 40 now, but people pluck the X-term out of the sack every time they need a synonym for young people.
Generally, though, it's considered that those born between 1965-1975 are considered part of Gen-X, though more recently that's changed to 1961-1981. Gen-Y (or Why?) is considered to be people born between 1976-1981.
So, it's these kids born from, say, the late eighties to the early 90's that are showing these signs of increased violence and the urge to destroy.
Does it matter? No. It doesn't. Damn punks.
TMC.
Disgruntled. |
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Frost
Location: K.Dot
Gender: Male
No beer makes Frosty go..something something..(Taz: Crrazzy?)..Dont mind if I doo!
| | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 15 on 7/24/2003 5:04 PM >
| | | | Posted by The Mighty Crossfire
I don't necessarily want to argue semantics with you, K-os, but I think you're a little off with your dates. Generation X (by Douglas Coupland) was published in 1991. Back then, pundits were also using that term "20something". Which means, that if in 1990 Gen-X'ers were 20, they're around 40 now, but people pluck the X-term out of the sack every time they need a synonym for young people.
Generally, though, it's considered that those born between 1965-1975 are considered part of Gen-X, though more recently that's changed to 1961-1981. Gen-Y (or Why?) is considered to be people born between 1976-1981.
So, it's these kids born from, say, the late eighties to the early 90's that are showing these signs of increased violence and the urge to destroy.
Does it matter? No. It doesn't. Damn punks.
TMC.
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I wasn't arguing with you... I just read it last week though about that... and see now you just admitted that it runs to 1981 as of recently anyways... so I was just relaying info that I had seen... no big, I don't care either, they are just punks.... little shits need a kick in the head if you ask me.
Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal? Its a natural plant that grows in the dirt. You know what's not natural, 80 year old dudes with hardons. Thats not natural, but we got pills for that. We're dedicating all our resources to keeping the old guys erect but we're puttin people in jail for smoking something that grows in the dirt. |
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asdafaf
Location: oe'r yonder
I have always been here before.
| | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 16 on 7/24/2003 9:15 PM >
| | | | You crazy kids better be using "punks" in the generic old fart way and not in the subculture-specific way, or I'll come kick your door in and spraypaint anarchy signs all over your house.
Actually, I LIKE old 80's vandalism. Heavy metal bands, Nazi and anti-Nazi stuff, big giant boobies, and anarchy signs. "Jenny sucks!" "Sewer Ratz Rule, OK?" Any kid with a can of paint could do it. There needs to be a cool simple graffiti retro movement to cover up all the stupid 90's unreadable art wanker rave bullshit graffiti, just like punk came along in reaction to the bloated wankery of 70's rock. Maybe Action Squad will go renegade from the UE movement and turn into an old-school spraypaint crew ... hmmm ...
I'm looking for software engineers to hire at Amazon. |
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Chud
Try a 211, you'll just get 187'd...
| | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 17 on 7/24/2003 9:26 PM >
| | | | So you're a punk, saying that hip-hop blows... that's great Max, really great. 
The way I see it, punks(common vandals) will be punks and urban explorers will explore; as long as the two stay seperate, there's no real problem (except of course the fact that punks ought to be kicked in the collective head). The real problems arise when, as this topic's firstmost post was getting at, the explorers are blamed for the punks' misdeeds. The best way I can think of combating this, is to get on one end of the Spectrum of Secrecy (see ill. 1) and stay there.
1-------------------------2------------------------3
1.Total Secrecy, ninja style
2.Public knowledge about existance, secrecy about methods and goals
3.Public knowledge about existance, methods (to an extent), etc.
Illustration 1, the Spectrum of Secrecy
Obviously, the low end of this spectrum is ideal for not getting any blame put on you, but Jester is an example of someone who opperates at the high end (ie, plenty of media attention, etc). If you're in the middle, people know where you are going, but they don't realise that you are just looking around, which is when problems arise.
/pointless jack-assery
Nobody will not agree with the Russians, ever on anything.
-Kimmo |
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Shotglazz
Location: Bay of Quinte Area
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 18 on 7/24/2003 9:29 PM >
| | | | well, I think it's totally stupid for ppl to just trash a place "cuz they can"...I mean, is there a faster way to ruin this hobby we all have? I think not...
Shotglazz
(insert evil laughter here)
(insert evil laughter here) |
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Crossfire
Location: Kay-Dub
Gender: Male
Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years.
| | | | | Re: Local punks giving you a bad image..
<Reply # 19 on 7/24/2003 9:36 PM >
| | | | Posted by Max Action
You crazy kids better be using "punks" in the generic old fart way and not in the subculture-specific way, or I'll come kick your door in and spraypaint anarchy signs all over your house.
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Worry not, young grasshopper. That's exactly how I meant it. Not punks as in Flying Lizards/Sex Pistols/Black Flag punk, but in the 'that fucking little punk!' punk.
TMC.
Disgruntled. |
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