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UER Forum > Archived UE Main > Almost caught on live inf. (Viewed 643 times) MatC  Nobler Donor Location: ENY Gender: Male Accepted everywhere  |  |  Almost caught on live inf. < on 9/19/2004 12:28 PM >   I just recently had what was probably my closest scrape yet with actually getting in trouble for UE’ing. (I was actually “caught” by security and asked to leave from this location but I played it very innocent and said I was doing a photo project and the guy totally believed me. (He was really very cordial -- no attitude or anything... which is rare, or so it seems from the stories I read on here.) That was nothing compared to what almost happened to me this time. Anyway, so I am on a business trip and, after getting back to the hotel pretty late, but not yet wanting to retire for the evening, I decided to see if I could get access to the roof. So I took my camera (my old Olympus -- nothing big, but it has a shoulder strap) and put it over my shoulder (first mistake) and went out to inspect the stairwells. I found one locked access hatch (locked with a padlock... and, oddly, next to a sign saying that there was no roof access in that stairwell... hmmmm) but there didn’t seem to be any other way up in any other stairwell. I walked all over the top floor of the hotel and, finding nothing else of interest, figured I would call it a night. I was heading back to my room to go to sleep when I passed by the most obvious and easy access to the roof possible. There was an attached stairwell on the side of the hotel and not only was the roof over the landing below me almost exactly even with the handrails around the walkway, the ceiling of the structure continued upwards directly onto the roof! So it would have been a matter of nothing more than stepping over the railing onto the landing roof, climbing up the four feet of slanted section, and stepping out onto the hotel roof itself. Easy as pie, compared to some places where you have to climb ladders or pop hatches. The problem? The access I described was (perhaps purposely) located in full view of a very high traffic area of the hotel. As I stood contemplating how I was going to approach it, I saw probably five different people walking along the courtyard where they could easily have seen me scaling the slanted section. Plus, once on the roof I would have been completely exposed from all directions -- no nice air ducts to hide behind for at least forty feet. So as I thought about it, I took some night shots of the hotel because the area looked kind of cool the way it was set up. Eventually, as I watched five or six more people walk by in the course of only a few minutes, I decided that there was far too much traffic to chance it for a view that would be only about eight feet higher up than I already was, so I decided to go back to my room. I (VERY luckily) tucked my camera into my pocket and headed back towards my part of the hotel. As I rounded the corner, I saw a rent-a-cop security guard and greeted him, honestly without even having a clue that he might be looking for me (since I hadn’t actually succeeded in doing anything wrong ). He greeted me right back and then turned to walk with me as I went by, which I thought was a little bit odd, and then he said, “this section is closed for the next few hours.” I looked at him, realizing that he was talking to me (I figured he was doing so only because I was walking through this “closed” section of the hotel) and thinking that he would simply say, “so don’t walk through here -- have a nice night!” or something. Instead he kept walking with me and asked, “are you a guest?” I said yes, and pulled out my key as proof. He seemed to accept that, but walked very close to me and was being overly deferential, saying stuff like, “hey, I know what you’re doing... just walking around... but this area is closed for the next few hours... maybe you can stop by later and see what’s going on, but I need to keep this area clear.” And then he said, “and someone said they had seen a guy with a camera, and nobody’s allowed to take pictures here tonight.” Call me dense, but it wasn’t until then that it dawned on me what was going on. See, as I learned the previous night when I was checking in, the city where I am staying this weekend is playing host to a gathering of adult film stars... and guess which hotel they’re staying in? Yup. So I immediately knew what was up, but because I was (ostensibly) just a guy walking around a hotel, I had to play it cool. “Oh, why is that?” I said. The guard looked at me and said, “well, there’s a party going on downstairs and there are some women down there who don’t want any photographs.” At this point I decided it was best to seem as if I finally understood what was up (or at least why he needed to shoo me out of the area) so I said, “ahhh, okay,” as if I was just getting it. He started to head to the elevators, presumably to take me to my room, but I went towards my real room, which was in a tangential direction. As I walked away, he called out, “hey, what room are you in?” And I told him the real number, which at first I thought was stupid because then he could look me up, or whatnot, but in retrospect was probably wise since it showed that I was indeed a guest, knew where I was going, etc. I got back to my room feeling awkward and nervous... and then suddenly it hit me what could very easily have happened. If I had decided to scale the roof and had been caught up there (as would have been all but certain -- not only would the sound of my footsteps have been extremely easy for the guard to follow from one floor below, he would pretty easily have seen me if he had just walked around the floor once or twice) I would probably have been arrested. A guy on a roof with a camera at a hotel that just happens to be hosting a porn star convention? Yeah, sure you were just taking pictures of the view, buddy. Tell it to the judge. If I had even been walking around with the camera still on my shoulder, the security guard probably wouldn’t have had cause to arrest me, or detain me until the police arrived, but I imagine that our meeting would have been a little bit less pleasant if he knew for sure that I was “that guy with a camera.” (I am pretty sure that he suspected that’s who I was. I was wearing fairly distinctive clothing [mistake number two] and so whoever reported me may indeed have described my appearance. But obviously he didn’t have any proof, or anything really to hold against me since I was a guest at the hotel and all he knew for sure was that I was a guest who was walking around the hotel -- certainly not a crime.) The only thing going for me, really, (besides sheer dumb luck at putting away the camera) was that I wasn’t taking pictures in the actual area where the porn stars were partying (which is where the guard was standing). Had I been standing there when he arrived, again, things might have gone a lot worse. So I sat in my room with a chill in my bones for a while before I started to feel extremely lucky (all the while reminding myself why I mostly explore abandonments and don’t typically do live infiltration). Anyway, I just thought I would impart a lesson -- when porn stars are involved, don't try any funny business at your hotel, no matter how easy it looks like it will be. (Hmmm, that’s sufficiently inapplicable as to help absolutely no one and yet still seem somewhat useful.) Seriously, though, do learn from my mistakes (for which I almost got into big trouble). First of all, don’t carry your camera where it can be seen. As normal as it may seem to you to have a camera, people (and not just porn stars) get really suspicious that you’re a reporter, or that you’re spying on them, or whatnot. Second of all, wear non-descript clothing. I actually thought about that before I left my room, but because I am on a business trip I actually don’t have anything particularly casual with me. But take it into consideration, since if you’re easy to describe, you’re easy to catch. Third of all, do the only good thing that I did -- trust your UE survival instincts. If a place (especially a place unfamiliar to you) seems like it’s too exposed or it appears that you would be too easily seen, DON’T RISK IT. If it seems too exposed, it probably is. Don’t wuss out and skip a cool location because there’s a slight risk involved, but weigh the pros and the cons fairly and you’re sure to make the right call. And, finally, don’t mess around with porn stars. They’re crazy, and they’ll call the cops (or at least security) if they see you walking by with a camera, even if you’re not pointing it at them. Damn porn stars. -- Mat "We shall not cease from exploration / And the end of all our exploring / Will be to arrive where we started / And know the place for the first time." - T.S. Eliot, excerpt from "Little Gidding" Myelin  Location: The End of Canada Gender: Male  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 1 on 9/19/2004 1:23 PM >   Sounds like you ran into that rare breed of security guard that knows the limitations of his powers AND the benefit of using a little bit of diplomacy in dealing with the situation. Working in the hospitality industry, that guard probably had to be extra careful. Trespassing or not, you don't push guests around. I used to run into this kind of thing when I worked in security at a big three plant. (Don't miss that job a bit!) Youths would pop out of sewers, through holes in gates, etc. You just treat them with some respect and see them off the property. End of story. I get a laugh when I read stories about these guards that act like Rambo. Unless someone is setting fire to the place, vandalizing, or stealing something, why get all excited about it, I say? RoofTopper  Location: New york city Gender: Male Hi  |  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 2 on 9/19/2004 3:45 PM >   I seriously think your exageratting. And i beleive you wasted your time with this post. And you stole my time with it. I do not think they would have arrested you for taking photos from the roof. And pornstars get photographed all the time it wouldnt bother them at all. Adolf was here -MisfitStyle-   |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 3 on 9/19/2004 4:39 PM >   Posted by Adolf I seriously think your exageratting. And i beleive you wasted your time with this post. And you stole my time with it. I do not think they would have arrested you for taking photos from the roof. And pornstars get photographed all the time it wouldnt bother them at all. The roof is private property. People are not allowed on the roof. This constitutes trespassing. The fact that he would have been taking pictures is irrelevant. He would have been arrested. I could actually see why they would close off the area for the pornstars. Pornstars mean one thing: pervert fanboys. What do pervert fanboys carry? Cameras. I don't think it's so much that they don't want to be photographed...as I'm sure they would be in their V.I.P. area, it's probably more that they don't want perverts slobbering all over them. edit: wording [last edit 9/19/2004 4:40 PM by -MisfitStyle- - edited 1 times] "I feel like I just got in a battle of wits with some kid in a helmet I found licking a window." Need help? Please use the Contact a Mod forum — I'm slow to see PMs. uem-Tux  Iron Wok Jan Location: Montreal Gender: Male UE Geek  |  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 4 on 9/19/2004 6:00 PM >   Cool story. Close calls might put a bit of a scare into you, but after the fact they're kind of exciting, and they make good stories too! Kudos on not getting caught. Urban Exploration Montreal Why are you the way that you are? Shane  Moderator Location: Bronx, NY Gender: Male  |  |  |  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 5 on 9/19/2004 7:31 PM >   Posted by -MisfitStyle- The roof is private property. People are not allowed on the roof. This constitutes trespassing. The fact that he would have been taking pictures is irrelevant. He would have been arrested. Arrested? I highly doubt it. He didn't mention passing any kind of warning signs, and there is nothing specifically illegal about going onto a roof. At worst he could have gotten a warning for trespassing, and if he returned THEN gotten a ticket. Also, there is nothing illegal about having a camera or taking pictures, and without signs posted all over the place, there would be no way to know about the porn convention and the restriction on photography on that particular night. This is not something I'd loose any sleep over. edit: forgot a word. [last edit 9/19/2004 7:31 PM by Shane - edited 1 times] "Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk MatC  Nobler Donor Location: ENY Gender: Male Accepted everywhere  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 6 on 9/19/2004 7:43 PM >   Posted by Adolf I seriously think your exageratting. Had I been exaggerating, I think I would have made up a better story -- one that made me look more like a gung-ho explorer. For example, off the top of my head, I could have said that I did go onto the roof and I was taking pictures of the porn stars when I heard two security guys come up with specific instructions to look for me, so I hid behind an air duct and somehow they missed me. But I still had to sneak down, so I had to climb down a disused ladder to a landing one floor down and climb from there to successive balconies to get away safely. For example. Posted by Adolf And i beleive you wasted your time with this post. And you stole my time with it. I'm sorry you feel that way. As SnakeEyes implied, I am probably wasting my time replying to you, but I figured I would do so for anyone else who felt similarly to you, but chose not to post their disbelief. I realize it's kind of an odd situation, but that's precisely why I chose to post it rather than remain silent (as I do about most of my explorations). Posted by Adolf I do not think they would have arrested you for taking photos from the roof. This is, of course, a debatable issue, but I really think that I would have been nailed either for trespassing or for whatever the legal equivalent of "invasion of privacy" is. And I guess I can't blame the hotel for feeling that way -- after all, I am occupying just one room while, I overheard, the "convention" is taking up somewhere around 100, not to mention the money they're spending in the hotel bar, the gift shop, etc. PLUS, if anyone in attendance at the event ever comes back to this area, they will be more likely to stay at a hotel they've already stayed in once than some random hotel they've never been to before (but only if they feel they were well treated there, up to and including that they were protected from curious onlookers [or "pervert fanboys" if you prefer ]). Posted by Adolf And pornstars get photographed all the time it wouldnt bother them at all. This is like saying that retail workers get harrassed all the time by customers, so they won't mind if you harrass them on the street, or that police officers see guns all the time so they won't mind if you pull out your Desert Eagle and point it at them. Porn stars, like any famous and/or attractive people, indeed sometimes get paid to have photographs taken of them... in controlled situations, like photo shoots, movies, etc. They have a modicum of control as to how these things are used, as well as recourse through the law, unions, etc. However, if a random passerby grabs a photo of some porn actress in an embarrassing situation, as long as that photo was taken legally, then they have no control over its use or recourse if it's used irresponsibly. So they're justified (ideologically, if not always legally) in trying to restrict the types of photos that are taken by them. (In this case, of course, the hotel is completely justified in restricting access to any parts of their property, as long as those restrictions don't result in fire code violations, etc. Had I been taking photos from the street, I could have told them to shove it [I probably wouldn't have, but I could have] but since it was on their property, I didn't really have a leg to stand on.) So, yeah, I suggest that you take another look at the situation and examine it critically rather than making knee-jerk assumptions. Posted by uem-Tux Kudos on not getting caught. Heh, thanks. I wish I could take credit for some sort of ingenious move or swift-talking with the guard, but to be honest, I was saved only by my choice to put away my camera and the genuine appearance of innocence which came from not realizing that the guard was actually looking for me. Posted by Shane He didn't mention passing any kind of warning signs, and there is nothing specifically illegal about going onto a roof. At worst he could have gotten a warning for trespassing, and if he returned THEN gotten a ticket. Really? Maybe I feel differently because I was kinda freaked out at the time (especially since, as I mentioned, I was traveling for work and so my employer might have been less than pleased to find about my exploits) but it really seems to me that they would have stuck it to me simply to have set an obvious example to their large customers (the convention) that they were serious about security. I think that the first step was sending the security guard, and if I had been actually breaking the law and/or had become belligerent with the guard, they might have chosen to detain me. But, honestly, I don't know. As was mentioned before, hotels are all about minimizing confrontation and so they might have just threatened me with calling the cops to put the fear of god into me and sent me on my way. That is a plausible situation, since the police probably have better things to do than ticket trespassers. EDIT: Added the reply to Shane -- Mat [last edit 9/19/2004 7:51 PM by MatC - edited 1 times] "We shall not cease from exploration / And the end of all our exploring / Will be to arrive where we started / And know the place for the first time." - T.S. Eliot, excerpt from "Little Gidding" DjMalign  Location: Fort Collins, CO Gender: Male Sexy, sexy, sexy  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 7 on 9/19/2004 7:48 PM >   This is why I never do active sites. I agree he could have gotten out of it if he'd got caught since there was no signage. I hate all of you MatC  Nobler Donor Location: ENY Gender: Male Accepted everywhere  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 8 on 9/19/2004 7:55 PM >   Posted by DjMalign This is why I never do active sites. I agree he could have gotten out of it if he'd got caught since there was no signage. True, although I think it could be argued that it's fairly obvious that a hotel roof is off-limits to everyone but maintenance personnel. This might be less clear in a location where, say, an elevator or an easily accessible staircase goes directly to the roof level, rather than this case where it was clearly a non-public route. In short, you (and Shane) make a good point, but I think that this is a much better legal argument (such as when mounting a legal challenge to get out of a ticket) than something to confront the security guard with. -- Mat "We shall not cease from exploration / And the end of all our exploring / Will be to arrive where we started / And know the place for the first time." - T.S. Eliot, excerpt from "Little Gidding" Shane  Moderator Location: Bronx, NY Gender: Male  |  |  |  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 9 on 9/19/2004 8:28 PM >   Posted by MatC True, although I think it could be argued that it's fairly obvious that a hotel roof is off-limits to everyone but maintenance personnel. This might be less clear in a location where, say, an elevator or an easily accessible staircase goes directly to the roof level, rather than this case where it was clearly a non-public route. While it may seem like common sense that a hotel roof would be off limits, there is no law in existence that states "if a place seems like it should be off limits it can be considered tresspassing". In most places, the crime is "Tresspass after warning", you can't be charged for it without being warned first. The warning can come from a posted sign or from some employee/landowner asking you to leave. If you refuse to leave, or come back after you have been warned, then you can be charged with the crime. "Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk Myelin  Location: The End of Canada Gender: Male  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 10 on 9/19/2004 10:12 PM >   The general trespassing definition of "gradual intrusion without right or permission" could arguably be applied to the roof excursion that is the subject of this thread. Would it fly when it gets its day in court...who knows? We can play armchair lawyer on this one until the cows come home. It's just a good thing the writer had a happy ending for this close call. 'Dukes  Noble Donor Gender: Male At least someone llikes me  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 11 on 9/19/2004 10:55 PM >   Adolf said Mat was exaggerating; I think this is just Mat's cover story because he got busted trying to photog the porn queens! Very clever mat; " I know, I'll make up some story about trying to inf the roof"! You pervert. I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying. r0sie  Resident Locksmith  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 12 on 9/20/2004 1:23 AM >   There is a saying A near death experience is a life saving experience. Translated from french, lost some flare I guess... But yeah, kinda relates to this story in a way... I exclusivly do life infiltrations, wouldent change it for a thing, shit like that is part of the fun. rosie Turd Furgusen  Location: Charleston, WV Gender: Male I think marijuana is just nature's way of saying high!  |  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 13 on 9/22/2004 4:38 PM >   I had a similar situation happen, but on a semi-classified military base with an MP. I had my camera hidden when I was "caught" and turned away. A few minutes later I ran into another MP, who was off duty. He asked what happened with the other guard. I told him the truth. He said I was really lucky. Had the other MP seen the camera or had he seen it while on duty it would have been confiscated and he said "believe me you'd never see it again". It was my best camera so I was pretty lucky. I did ask him if I could in anyway tour the underground base. He told me that to his knowledge a handful of people had (no pic's obviously) and I could write my Congressmen for permission. About a month later 9/11 happened and I gave up all hope as security at the site became unreal. P.S. By the end of this week I'll be adding this place to the UE DB. I'll give a really good description of what this place is and its' purpose. Everyone has a dark side, mines just a little more illuminated. MatC  Nobler Donor Location: ENY Gender: Male Accepted everywhere  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 14 on 9/23/2004 12:42 AM >   Posted by Shane While it may seem like common sense that a hotel roof would be off limits, there is no law in existence that states "if a place seems like it should be off limits it can be considered tresspassing". In most places, the crime is "Tresspass after warning", you can't be charged for it without being warned first. I know that laws vary from place to place, but I thought that there was a universal statute that if a property owner had taken “reasonable precautions” (or whatever the legal language is) to exclude the general public, then they didn’t have to be responsible for posting signs in order to be able to prosecute for trespassing. That way, if you’ve put up a fence around a property (or boarded windows, or put up padlocks, or whatever), you don’t have to take the additional step of putting up signs all the way around, since it should be obvious to the general public that that building is not open for anyone to enter. Otherwise, wouldn’t it place an excessive burden on the property owner to post signs in every single conceivable location (every X feet as prescribed by law, by every possible entry point, etc.) so as not to be liable when someone gets hurt and says, “I didn’t know I couldn’t go inside this rotting old shoe factory with caved-in floors!”? If those types of laws do exist (and I am pretty sure they do... I’ll try to check into it, though) I suspect that there may also be a provision for things like people entering into areas which are clearly off-limits but which aren’t marked, such as building roofs. Otherwise, wouldn’t it be possible for people to, say, climb to the top of a building in one area, jump to the next building (an active business, let’s say), and then enter the building and start going into conference rooms, offices, etc. and then defend themselves by saying that there were no signs warning them off? If there’s such a loophole, I’d be glad to hear about it. But, again, maybe these laws vary from state to state. -- Mat "We shall not cease from exploration / And the end of all our exploring / Will be to arrive where we started / And know the place for the first time." - T.S. Eliot, excerpt from "Little Gidding" uem-Tux  Iron Wok Jan Location: Montreal Gender: Male UE Geek  |  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 15 on 9/23/2004 1:57 AM >   I think during live infiltrations it's better to concentrate on finding believable location-specific excuses for being where you are. Whether it's misrepresentation "I have to deliver this package to suite C... can you please tell me where the heck I am?" or just the old standbys of claiming to be lost or looking for a bathroom or exit... it's better to have a believable excuse than to rely on a vague knowledge of trespassing law. The idea is to get away clean if you're caught and avoid contact with the police altogether. My group and I have been caught in some VERY awkward places (like city infrastructure, and active steam tunnels) and have always gotten away without police involvement. That being said, I suppose if whoever caught you did call the police, some knowledge of the law might be useful when they're trying to decide what to charge you with. Even if someone who caught me did call the police though, I'd sooner make a run for it than just wait complacently for them to arrive. Urban Exploration Montreal Why are you the way that you are? SPEK Photo  Location: Where you were not. "Chere cachère!"  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 16 on 9/23/2004 3:47 AM >   Tux, the other day when Enron jr. and I were going foward looking for the drain entrance; we were walking in a small river that goes between residential houses that leads to a drain, we needed to see if the drain was somewhat possible to explore. But as we were walking toward the entrance, the sound of our footsteps in the water caught the attention of the residents. A man and his wife came out frome the back of their house to see who the hell was walking "in" their courtyard. At the same time, another man came out from the other side to see. I wasn't the time to run, I had to explain to the man and his wife that we ... were check for Nile virus mosquitos larva. The guy didn't totally swallow my explanation, but his wife was more in it. He said that the city had already checked the river, "I see, in that case I have no reason to check it again..." I successfully talked our way out. There was two possibility: run or talk. run: the resident would call the poilice right away and in this little suburb we would have been spot very fast. talk: talk a way out without wrecking the story, have the people to trust us and then turn back. Main main concern was that they could call the police while they are talking to us, then we would have to explain ourself to the police, making the mosquitos story not an option. Social ingineering can save you from some a very deep situation. Pour fins d'archives. WWW.EXPLORATIONURBAINE.CA Shane  Moderator Location: Bronx, NY Gender: Male  |  |  |  |  |  Re: Almost caught on live inf. <Reply # 17 on 9/23/2004 5:24 PM >   Yeah, there are provisions for if a place is reasonably closed up, and they usually fall into the "breaking and enter" charge. Something like climbing a fence, opening a window, or opening an unlocked but closed door can all be considered breaking and entering (the definition changes slightly from city to city). Virtually anything other than walking into a wide open door without touching anything can be considered breaking and entering, you don't actually have to smash something. With that said, I left that part out because he was in a building and all he had to do was go over/around a railing, which I suppose could be a grey area, but if that's all it takes why have I seen countless "Roof Access: Authorized Personnel Only" signs? It might not get you out of a ticket if actual police show up, but the abscence of a sign gives you some degree of plausible deniability with security and/or employees. "Oh, I didn't see a sign or anything, I didn't think there was a problem being on the roof, I just came up to have a smoke and enjoy the view" "Because there's no possibility of real disaster, real risk, we're left with no chance for real salvation. Real elation. Real excitement. Joy. Discovery. Invention. The laws that keep us safe, these same laws condemn us to boredom. Without access to true chaos, we'll never have true peace. Unless everything can get worse, it won't get any better." -Chuck Palahniuk UER Forum > Archived UE Main > Almost caught on live inf. (Viewed 643 times) All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire. 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