 |
|
|
UER Store
|
|
sweet UER decals:
|
|
|
|
Activity
|
|
958 online
Server Time:
2024-05-15 12:42:48
|
|
|
 HolyJesusILoveCreed
  
Member has passed away. Account closed out of respect.
Location: MN
Gender: Male
"So-called Urban Explorer"
 |  |  |  |  | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 20 on 9/5/2004 4:39 PM >
|  | | | Posted by Panic!
I can't belive it. Yet again. You people have top REALLY get your act together. The Twin Cities people have done more to harm the reputation of UE in the past 12 months than any other organisation, city or individual. I know that the problem is obviously not caused by everyone there, but it is caused by some regular explorers who use his forum.
I mean, "man falls down open manhole", "Kids die in cave", "Guy from UER.CA has TNT filled garage" "People cause vandalism"
Get your act together. Start an education campaign or something. When I went to your city the incredible obviousness of infighting and failure to communicate with each other was apparent. The fact that you have some people having to maintain a regular damage control relationship with the media is indicative of the problem. And that some others simply won't speak or explore with others is nuts. Then finally, you have people who are obviously UEs damaging places.
This is not good and it brings unwanted and unneeded attention to us. Sorry to be harsh, but you people need to put your house in order.
|
please dont say "You People" like we are all one big interconnected family, do not group "us"(whomever us would be) with those stupid teenage vandals
I ask how and what we are to do? do a support UE Ethics out reach group at the local town hall or YMCA? and take the non-attending members UE cards away?
Or maybe find out where these vandals live, call them and give them a sterned talking to?
Or should be beat them up?
I wish there was something we could do, but there isnt, it just happens and there is not much "US PEOPLE" can do about it
[last edit 9/5/2004 5:08 PM by HolyJesusILoveCreed - edited 1 times]
Now that I have found someone
I'm feeling more alone
Than I ever have before |
|
Krenta
 
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Nope, wasn't me.
| | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 21 on 9/5/2004 8:39 PM >
|  | | | Posted by MatC
So how did they happen to find you -- via your web site? Or did you call them up to give your side of the story?
|
It's a long story. A reporter from a local paper found a handful of local UE websites, including Action Squad, and emailed the owners. One of the people contacted didn't want to talk to the media, so he or she forwarded the email to me. I emailed the reporter, who later gave my contact info to the TV station when they became interested in the story. I then gave them ETMJ's phone number, and they contacted him.
Because of the constant need to do damage-control here in the land of immature and irresponsible explorers who are ruining it for everyone else, some of us are on first-name bases with several local reporters. Sad, innit? 
Posted by Panic
The Twin Cities people have done more to harm the reputation of UE in the past 12 months than any other organisation, city or individual. I know that the problem is obviously not caused by everyone there, but it is caused by some regular explorers who use his forum.
|
And what do you suggest "we" do about it, O wise and perfect one? Revoke their UE membership? Kidnap and kill them? Ask them really politely to stop being insufferable dumbasses?
Get your act together. Start an education campaign or something.
|
You seem to have missed the very decentralized nature of the UE community. Nobody is in a position of authority to "educate" others. What do you want us to do, leave metal signs screwed to the walls of popular UE sites saying "The Urban Explorers of Minneapolis-Saint Paul thank you for not vandalising this location"?
When I went to your city the incredible obviousness of infighting and failure to communicate with each other was apparent.
|
Really? You infer all this from a large number of people who won't return your emails or PMs or in any way communicate with you? It looked to me like "we" were all communicating with each other quite well indeed... and agreed not to do so with you.
The fact that you have some people having to maintain a regular damage control relationship with the media is indicative of the problem.
|
Is it? Or is it just indicative of "the problem" that we have a number of people here who are *willing* to talk openly to the media here without hiding our faces or names, without fear? People who are actually proactive in maintaining a positive media presence? Could it be indicative of "the problem" that we probably have one of the best working relationships with the local PD of any large UE community, despite all the incidents we've had happen here?
Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel. |
|
Heartless
Location: Dakota Territory
Gender: Male
nowhere is a state of mind
| | | | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 22 on 9/6/2004 8:13 AM >
| | | | Population of Minneapolis / St. Paul and surrounding area: damn near if not over 3,000,000 people. Of those people, those of us in the Cities who are active on UER (or not), know and explore with regularly or at least semi-regularly: probably around 20, at least that I know of. Number of people who call themselves explorers because they broke into a warehouse or went to mushroom valley to smoke pot: at least fifty times that, at least. The cave reference you made (speaking to Panic! here) was an incident completely unrelated to us and what we do. Those caves have been used for genearations upon generations by curious kids and n'er do wells and explorers alike, and there's nothing we can do to educate people and keep the general population safe unless we post guards at every explorable location in the Twin Cities metro and surrounding area and keep them there 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. There's already signs up listing previous deaths and warning potential morons not to go inside, the news programs have all been airing shit about it, it's been in the papers, and people still go there to fuck around. Most of these people are either oblivious, under the influence, or simply don't care enough to heed the warnings and all of a sudden someone gets hurt and the rest of the UE community is blamed almost as fast as the city is for neglect.
We can tell people on forums frequented by shitheads (*cough* 907 *cough*) about dangers and right and wrong concerning vandalism and whatnot, but people who care about getting into a place by whatever means possible aren't going to change their courses of action no matter what. We can refuse to meet people and control the flow of information, but that only buys us time, and not much. Not everyone looks at exploring with the viewpoint of patience, respect, and outlook; and while unfortunate, there's really nothing that can be done.
And to the point Krenta made: I'm glad there are some among us who actively seek to clarify misconceptions with the press and the public when incidents happen, and work to save the faces of the rest of us.
I am not exactly an influential member or part of the Twin Cities regulars, any "group" of them, but I think my point is valid nonetheless.
[last edit 9/6/2004 8:16 AM by Heartless - edited 1 times]
"I hope that I find you in heaven, because I'm so lost without you down here..."
Lost Highway Photography |
|
Downtown D-Low Brown
Location: The Ill Noize.
Gender: Male
The game is the game.
| | | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 23 on 9/6/2004 8:46 AM >
|  | | | Yeah, it does seem rather ignorant to indict a whole community for the sins of a few who really shouldn't be considered explorers and should be more accurately called dumbasses . Having had the honor of making at least the acquaintance of a good portion of the TC explorers here, I feel safe in saying that they are upstanding, mellow, and very welcoming explorers. So it seems unfair to say "a few bad apples spoil the bunch".
Again, this isn't a company; we can't take them to UE Court and make them pay us good explorers who don't wantonly destroy things without purpose some kind of tribute and then have them excommunicated. It doesn't work that way.
Unless Panic, of course, you happen to disagree?
~D
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
|
|
Arrow
Noble Donor
Location: Minneapolis
Gender: Male
| | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 24 on 9/6/2004 5:41 PM >
| | | | Posted by Panic!
I mean, "man falls down open manhole"...Get your act together.
|
Did you look into the news about that incident at all?
From http://www.mnsun.com/story.asp?city=Bloomington&story=142438...
Man rescued from shaft after 35-foot fall
By Harvey T. Rockwood and Lyn Jerde, Sun Newspapers
A 53-year-old New Hope man was rescued from a fall down a 35-foot pump station shaft in Eden Prairie that left him critically injured Monday afternoon.
Paramedics and firefighters from Eden Prairie and a tactical rescue squad from the Edina Fire Department spent about an hour bringing the man to the surface at a road construction site near the intersection of Eden Prairie Road and Pioneer Trail.
...
The injured man is an employee of the Henteges and Son, a construction firm that was pumping water from lift stations at the site.
The crew had apparently finished pumping the water from one manhole and was preparing to move to another, the police report stated.
The man was attempting to guide heavy construction equipment to the next manhole, and was walking backwards when he fell into the open manhole, the report indicated.
...
|
(Note: bold emphasis in story is mine)
So your advice should be "don't walk backwards" and not "clean up your act Twin Cities explorers."
|
|
Panic!
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: Australia
Big drain driving
| | | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 25 on 9/6/2004 9:00 PM >
| | | | There's no need for personal attacks or off-topic mentions of my past.
The man falling down manhole thing I mentioned occoured earlier on in the year or possibly even last year. As I recall, it was at night and in a park. There was no mention of construction eqipment. How about people stop with the "shoot the messenger" attacks huh. I'm saying the Twin Cities have problems, you've got to admit them and deal with them.
The fact that Greg Brick is "out of the loop" is indiactive of a communications problem.
The fact that you have "people being dorky fanboys and breaking into Max's house as a joke" points to poor eithics.
The fact that Max-Action has a house "filled with stuff stolen from buildings" (as pointed out in the Danvers / Mike Digital thread) also points to problems with ethics.
The fact that "because we blacklisted you" also suggests an ethics / communication problem.
I understand that those six guys who were caught wandering down a a street dressed in black with night vision gear were also from / in the Twin Cities.
Maybe a break is needed from high risk activities?
Please keep the conversation on topic which is Re: "Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!" and not "Panic's past history"
Live your life like it really makes a difference.
What have you done today to make you feel proud?
John Lennon was a wise man. All the world living together as one. |
|
Macsbug
Noble Donor
Location: St. Paul, MN
Gender: Male
Safety First!
| | | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 26 on 9/6/2004 9:45 PM >
| | | | Greg Brick out of the loop a problem? At least my understanding of it is that he is really doing his own thing, and is cool with it, not "cast out" by us or anything.
"breaking into Max's house as a joke" - a joke
"We blacklisted you" - ethics problem? Or us preserving sites to some extent, and communications within the group working like it should? Like Krenta said - "It looked to me like "we" were all communicating with each other quite well indeed... and agreed not to do so with you."
We can't stop dumbasses from being dumbasses, and unless you have a magical solution, stop fucking whining. We are doing what we can, and I think that those who have been dealing with the media and others have been doing a great job, and have helped us all a lot, thank you guys.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." |
|
Ben
Noble Donor
Location: Mojave Desert
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 27 on 9/6/2004 10:18 PM >
| | | | Posted by Panic!
The man falling down manhole thing I mentioned occoured earlier on in the year or possibly even last year. As I recall, it was at night and in a park. There was no mention of construction eqipment. How about people stop with the "shoot the messenger" attacks huh. I'm saying the Twin Cities have problems, you've got to admit them and deal with them. |
"Cite" is not "as I recall". Give me a link or a date or a location or a person or a group, otherwise you're just posting what looks like unsubstantiated make-believe. As opposed to the completely fabricated make-believe, your more usual fare.
| The fact that Greg Brick is "out of the loop" is indiactive of a communications problem. |
Not at all. As Macsbug aptly points out, there are different cicles of explorers. I still correspond with him a few times a year, and am hoping to meet up some time this fall so that I can get him to autograph my copy of his book. People interact in different circles, but there is plenty of overlap. Big ol' n-dimensional Venn diagram, TC explorers are.
| The fact that you have "people being dorky fanboys and breaking into Max's house as a joke" points to poor eithics. |
Ah yes, a sense of humor is the first indication of poor ethics. Unlike for instance, spraypainting every drain we enter, that must be ethically sound since you do it, right? since that doesn't happen here, that must be another hit against TC ethics.
| The fact that Max-Action has a house "filled with stuff stolen from buildings" (as pointed out in the Danvers / Mike Digital thread) also points to problems with ethics. |
How did you like Max's house? Oh, wait, you've never been there. Huh.
| The fact that "because we blacklisted you" also suggests an ethics / communication problem. |
Just the opposite. The Cabal (TINTCUEC) is coordinated and has no higher motive than the safety of TC UE.
| Maybe a break is needed from high risk activities? |
Where would be the fun in that? You've never even heard of any of the high risk activities here, as they stay uniformly below the radar. Everything you know is wrong, to quote the song.
| Please keep the conversation on topic which is Re: "Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!" and not "Panic's past history" |
Glass houses, throwing rocks, any of this ringing a bell?
|
|
EatsTooMuchJam
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Gender: Male
Squirty "Stickybuns" von Cherrypants
| |  |  | | | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 28 on 9/6/2004 11:03 PM >
| | | | Posted by Panic!
The fact that Greg Brick is "out of the loop" is indiactive of a communications problem.
|
Not at all. Greg is "out of the loop" by choice. He doesn't care all that much for urban explorers in general and his focus is very different from ours as a rule. If Greg chose to renew communication with the rest of the area explorers he would be welcomed with open arms.
The fact that you have "people being dorky fanboys and breaking into Max's house as a joke" points to poor eithics.
|
It points to someone being silly. It's really no more poor ethics than, for instance, a group of explorers infiltrating a college campus and having one group try to move an inflatable bull from one spot to another while other explorers try to stop them.
The fact that Max-Action has a house "filled with stuff stolen from buildings" (as pointed out in the Danvers / Mike Digital thread) also points to problems with ethics.
|
Max's ethics are not necessarily indicative of the ethics of the rest of the explorer community and you are welcome, as anybody else in the UE community, to contact Max and let him know how you feel about the contents of his house.
The fact that "because we blacklisted you" also suggests an ethics / communication problem.
|
Not at all. In fact, it's indicative of the communication working perfectly. As we deal with a number of idiots in the Twin Cities we are, by necessity, a more insular community than some smaller communities. There are many people from other places who have been extended open invitations. One of the main differences is that we've met the people or they have in some other way impressed us.
If someone that we don't know contacts us we can only fall back on the opinions of other explorers who know the person or know of them. In your case, a number of other explorers were contacted and the majority opinion was "He's a nice guy, but I just wouldn't explore with him."
I understand that those six guys who were caught wandering down a a street dressed in black with night vision gear were also from / in the Twin Cities.
|
Sure. And of the four people who were caught exploring a mill in South Carolina and almost arrested, one was from the Twin Cities. As Infiltration has had several issues of "Caught" stories already, I can pretty safely say that getting busted is not a problem localized to the Twin Cities.
Maybe a break is needed from high risk activities?
|
Go right ahead. Take a break. We don't mind.
Please keep the conversation on topic which is Re: "Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!" and not "Panic's past history"
|
That's probably for the best.
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
-Tom Waits |
|
kowalski
| | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 29 on 9/6/2004 11:46 PM >
| | | | The only recent man-falls-down-open-manhole story I can remember occurred in Edmonton in June 2003.
And Panic, give it a rest, man. It's pretty clear to me and apparently everyone else here that the explorers we know in the Twin Cities are doing the best they can in a large urban centre with an ample community of unaffiliated dumb kids. So how about we give them more support and less vindictive, uninformed and baseless criticism?
|
|
Krenta
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Nope, wasn't me.
| | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 30 on 9/7/2004 12:10 AM >
| | | | Posted by Panic!
The fact that Greg Brick is "out of the loop" is indiactive of a communications problem.
|
As others have pointed out, you're incorrect. Mr. Brick, who I've met and found to be a nice fellow, has interests which diverge wildly from those of the majority of local explorers. His lack of involvement in things non-speleology are entirely voluntary on his part.
The fact that "because we blacklisted you" also suggests an ethics / communication problem.
|
Don't you get it? We communicate just fine... and all agreed not to communicate with you. How refusing to respond to your impersonal emails and PMs constitutes an ethics problem escapes me. Maybe the winter weather is getting to you?
Please keep the conversation on topic which is Re: "Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!" and not "Panic's past history"
|
Please keep the conversation on topic, which is "Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!", and not "Baseless attacks and accusations upon and towards the ethics, communication, and general character of a bunch of people I don't get on with".
Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel. |
|
Ben
Noble Donor
Location: Mojave Desert
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul tunnels in the news again!
<Reply # 31 on 9/7/2004 12:27 AM >
| | | | Posted by kowalski
The only recent man-falls-down-open-manhole story I can remember occurred in Edmonton in June 2003. |
I keep a close eye on the news (old habit from when I did the UE News), so I'm afraid I must contradict you there. People are falling into manholes all the time, but I haven't yet heard of an instance where it was the fault of an explorer.
Most recently, it has lent itself to this absurd joke:
Q: How do you catch a feminist?
A: With an open manhole.
(New Delhi, India, last Thursday.)
|
|
|
|
All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire.
To contact webmaster, or click to email with problems or other questions about this site:
UER CONTACT
View Terms of Service |
View Privacy Policy |
Server colocation provided by Beanfield
This page was generated for you in 109 milliseconds. Since June 23, 2002, a total of 741818435 pages have been generated.
|
|
