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 Lily White
    
Location: Rhode Island/NY/Nola
Gender: Male
Im drunk..
 |  |  | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 60 on 6/14/2012 5:29 PM >
|  | | | I will retrieve more information on this shortly...
[last edit 6/14/2012 5:30 PM by Lily White - edited 1 times]
www.fallout-ue.com
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Rinzler
  
Location: New Jersey
Nomad
| |  | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 61 on 6/14/2012 7:16 PM >
| | | | Norwich!
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Lily White
Location: Rhode Island/NY/Nola
Gender: Male
Im drunk..
| | | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 62 on 6/14/2012 7:33 PM >
| | | | Posted by McNulty
No, they ran out of money. By the time money was available again the kirkbride plan had fallen out of favor, so new buildings were built on the cottage plan.
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Everything you said is completely untrue, your statements have no validity, and none of your information is cited in anyway. There are additions/adjustments on most Kirkbrides that dont follow the original architectural plan. Keep in mind that his plan and theory encompassed more than just the exterior aesthetic but also focused on interior design and the mental/physical treatment of patients. In cases like this we can also argue that the original structure at Willard was not a Kirkbride due to the fact that it was a chronic care facility and the patients there were "incurable" and that all hope should be abandoned if a patient went there." (qtd. in Doran 6) Rehabilitation was a very important factor in Thomas Kirkbrides plan.
Actually no he doesnt, it says nothing of the sorts. Thats an original elevation-plan sketch done by the architect before the facility was even built.
Money wasnt a problem since the board specifically went "way over budget for lavish extravagance and waste" (NY Times 1973)
Proceeding on to your third inaccurate statement, which just proves you have little to no knowledge of Asylum/Hospital architecture and building plans. The Kirkbride plan didnt "fall out favor" when Hudson was completed in 1868. It wasnt until 1900 that the theory of "building-as-cure" was largely discredited and the Kirkbride plan was obsolete. From the time Hudson was completed till 1900 over 25 Kirkbride planned institutions were built. The Cottage Plan wasnt popular until the early 20th century.
1868 Hudson River State Hospital for the Insane
1869 Anna State Hospital, Anna, Illinois
1869 Central State Hospital Anchorage, Kentucky
1869 Danville State Hospital, Danville, Pennsylvania
1872 Northern Illinois State Mental Hospital, Elgin, Illinois
1873 Winnebago State Hospital, Oshkosh, Wisconsin
1873 Independence State Hospital, Independence, Iowa
1874 Athens Lunatic Asylum, Athens, Ohio
1874 Warren State Hospital Warren, PA
1875 Broughton Hospital, Morganton, North Carolina
1876 Greystone Park Psychiatric Hospital, Hanover, New Jersey
1876 Napa State Hospital, Napa, CA
1877 Worcester State Hospital, Worcester, Massachusetts
1878 Danvers State Hospital, Danvers, Massachusetts (demolished in 2006)[11]
1878 Eastern Michigan Asylum for the Insane, Pontiac, Michigan
1879 Kankakee State Hospital, Kankakee, Illinois
1880-1890 Buffalo State Hospital, Buffalo, New York
1883 Oregon State Hospital, Salem, Oregon
1883 Arkansas Lunatic Asylum, Little Rock, Arkansas (
1884 Clarinda State Hospital, Clarinda, Iowa (Still in use and preserved)
1885 Northern Michigan Asylum for the Insane, Traverse City, Michigan
1890 Cherokee Mental Health Institute, Cherokee, Iowa
1891 Sheppard Pratt Hospital, Towson, Maryland
1891 Eastern State Hospital, Medical Lake, Washington
1895 Fergus Falls Regional Treatment Center, Fergus Falls, Minnesota
| "so new buildings were built on the cottage plan." |
Its not a Cottage Plan if the ADMINISTRATION/PATIENT WARDS ARE A KIRKBRIDE. THOSE ARE JUST SIMPLY ADDITIONAL BUILDINGS.
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hydrotherapy
 
Clever Girl
Location: Circle of Least Confusion
RPS is inside all of us
| | | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 63 on 6/14/2012 7:39 PM >
| | | | Personally I think this thread needs a lot more caps lock.
Get down, girl, go 'head, get down. |
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Rinzler
Location: New Jersey
Nomad
| | | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 65 on 6/14/2012 7:42 PM >
| | | | Posted by hydrotherapy
Personally I think this thread needs a lot more caps lock.
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+1
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Lily White
Location: Rhode Island/NY/Nola
Gender: Male
Im drunk..
| | | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 66 on 6/14/2012 7:51 PM >
| | | | Posted by hydrotherapy
Personally I think this thread needs a lot more caps lock.
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I think this thread needs a lot more of your smokin azzzz.
www.fallout-ue.com
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Cbast1en
Location: The Northeast
Gender: Male
Pastrami Pizza!
| | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 67 on 6/14/2012 8:38 PM >
| | | | Posted by Adv.Pack
Such a wannabe Kirk.
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Looks more like a kirk then some actual kirks do. I have interiors on some of my earlier threads on here.
This is a really witty signature.. |
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McNulty
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: MD/PA
Gender: Male
I am Dr. Kirkbride
| | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 68 on 6/14/2012 11:30 PM >
| | | | Posted by lilywhitebloodred
They did not run out of money..
"This Kirkbride is somewhat unique in that one wing is shorter than the other. While some Kirkbride buildings have lost parts of wings to demolition, in the case of Hudson River this feature was planned before construction was finished. Apparently there was an expectation of fewer female patients than male patients (the Kirkbride Plan stipulated that each sex be housed in its own wing), and despite the asymmetry, the building is considered complete."
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Where are you citing that from, because it is incorrect. That is just somebodies best guess which has been being passed off as fact for years. Why would they expect less women than men when years and years of experience with other hospitals proved that would not be the case. It makes no sense and it wrong.
The following shows the Architects plan was approved to be built.
"The interior plan of arrangements had been most carefully prepared by the medical superintendent acting on his own knowledge of the necessities of such an institution with the counsel and approval of eminent men employed in the care of hospitals for the insane. After numerous interviews with the architects and much consideration of the subject the plans finally submitted to the board were finally approved by every member of the committee. A careful study of the plans and elevations submitted resulted in their unqualified approval by the board. The plans elevations specifications estimates etc were subsequently submitted to the State officers as by law required and received their approval on the ninth of August." page 7
The following shows the hospital was meant to be symmetrical, holding 250 of each sex, not more men than women.
"The design of the hospital as prepared by Messrs Vaux Withers & Co under the direction of the committee is described by the architects as follows. The hospital is planned to accommodate about two hundred patients of each sex the wards for men constituting the entire whig to the south and the wards for women the entire wing to the north of the central building which is devoted to the various departments of general management." page 7
"The department for each sex consists of four wards on the principal floor four wards on the second floor one ward on the third floor and an infirmary on the third floor separated entirely from the rest of the wards" page 8
Taken from "FIRST ANNUAL REPORT OF THE MANAGERS OF THE HUDSON RIVER STATE HOSPITAL THE INSANE FOR THE TEAR ENDING NOVEMBER 80 1867"
http://books.googl...rce=gbs_navlinks_s
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Lily White
Location: Rhode Island/NY/Nola
Gender: Male
Im drunk..
| | | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 69 on 6/15/2012 12:16 AM >
| | | | You must have missed the whole thing I posted after that comment. This also still proves nothing about what you previously said. It still wasn't built symmetrical and you still can't prove that they ran out of money, because its a fact that they didn't. You were wrong about everything you said and everything I posted can be proven in writing. So in short, gfys..
www.fallout-ue.com
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McNulty
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: MD/PA
Gender: Male
I am Dr. Kirkbride
| | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 70 on 6/15/2012 12:59 AM >
| | | | Posted by lilywhitebloodred
Everything you said is completely untrue, your statements have no validity, and none of your information is cited in anyway. |
Not it is not, see previous post.
Posted by lilywhitebloodred
There are additions/adjustments on most Kirkbrides that dont follow the original architectural plan. |
Yes, but clipping an entire wing to almost nothing is a bit more than the usual adjustments places make to fit their needs and budget. It is also a pretty large decision to make after construction already has begun.
Posted by lilywhitebloodred
Keep in mind that his plan and theory encompassed more than just the exterior aesthetic but also focused on interior design and the mental/physical treatment of patients. In cases like this we can also argue that the original structure at Willard was not a Kirkbride due to the fact that it was a chronic care facility and the patients there were "incurable" and that all hope should be abandoned if a patient went there." (qtd. in Doran 6) Rehabilitation was a very important factor in Thomas Kirkbrides plan. |
I know this. Kirkrbride objected to the creation of Willard and the idea of Chronic Asylums. No treatment means no Kirkbride plan.
| Posted by lilywhitebloodredActually no he doesnt, it says nothing of the sorts. Thats an original elevation-plan sketch done by the architect before the facility was even built. |
It was the elevation plan sketch that was adopted for construction, as shown in my previous post, so it was meant to be symmetrical. Work on the hospital had begun before than report was submitted.
Posted by lilywhitebloodred
Money wasnt a problem since the board specifically went "way over budget for lavish extravagance and waste" (NY Times 1973) |
Maybe the waste was a reason they never could get the money to finish it?
September 1868: Work begins
-The report of 1870 makes no mention of any change to the plans and mentions work is going on and the hospital should be opened by the next year hopefully.
-The report of 1871 mentions that at about 400k spent the three portions of the south wing were near complete, with the final fourth portion, administration, and kitchen building recommended for construction next. "It is proposed by the managers to erect the fourth section of wing the present year which will complete this wing with the plans adopted. Work will also be the central building and the general kitchen built."
So from this we see they were still building to plan and that the shorter female wing would be last to be built.
As of the 1872 Report the three sections were just about complete and the hospital had been open in this state since the previous October.
Then the money ran out. From the 1873 Report.
"This institution has made no progress in building since our last report owing to the failure of a sufficient appropriation from the last Legislature." And that is how it stayed until 1875 when money was appropriated for ore construction. '
By 1875 the state Comptroller had been assigned to oversee the construction because the expenses by then were already far over, and it was still incomplete.
By 1879 they began considering separate cottage buildings on the campus to deal with the state wide problem of the Chronic inane.
"During the past year a committee of this Board visited the River State Hospital at Poughkeepsie and had an with the trustees and superintendent of that institution upon the subject of erecting detached buildings so as enable it to retain and provide for its chronic insane. The matter was favorably considered by the officers of the hospital thought to be entirely practicable"
By 1880 the male wing, central building, and a ward of the female wing was built.
"At the Hudson River State Hospital there were 246 patients. Two new wards are now ready for occupancy."
This is the last progress on the Kirkbride is mentioned. By the later 1880s there are already proposals for separate buildings to be made on campus, such as "Block E" for acute male cases.
The 1886 report states the average population was 369 for the year of 1885 and states they were at full capacity. This shows that the hospital was not nearly completed to its specified 500 bed capacity as late a 1886.
This also supports the Reports. http://books.googl...on%20river&f=false
1870 Report: http://books.googl...rce=gbs_navlinks_s
1871 Report: http://books.googl...ook_other_versions
1872 Report: http://books.googl...ook_other_versions
1873 Report: http://books.googl...on%20river&f=false
1879 Report: http://books.googl...rce=gbs_navlinks_s
Posted by lilywhitebloodred
Proceeding on to your third inaccurate statement, which just proves you have little to no knowledge of Asylum/Hospital architecture and building plans. The Kirkbride plan didnt "fall out favor" when Hudson was completed in 1868. It wasnt until 1900 that the theory of "building-as-cure" was largely discredited and the Kirkbride plan was obsolete. From the time Hudson was completed till 1900 over 25 Kirkbride planned institutions were built. The Cottage Plan wasnt popular until the early 20th century. |
Hudson was laid out in 1868, not completed, as I have shown by 1880 it was still not completed, and never has been completed. They never finished the wing. That is why as late as 1886 they were still over a hundred beds away from the designed capacity.
By the1880 the Kirkbride was dying out, with some still swearing by it and others moving other plans, usually the segregate systems, such as the cottage plan or pavilion plans before the cottage plan really came into its own.
By the mid 1880s you have non kirkbride hospitals springing up, such as Toledo, Kankakee with the original cottage plan, Norristown and Clarinda on a Kirkbride ish detached plan. New York's last Kirkbride was Buffalo, being started in 1870, in 1874 they elected to abandon the Kirkbride plan as evidenced by Middletown.
By the time more funds were available it was already 1893 and that went to creating a separate Chronic insane building cluster at Hudson.
You should also note that though Kikrbrides were built in the 1880s and 1890s they are almost all in midwestern, southern and western states. The last East Coast Kirkbride was Warren in 1874, as most newer ideas in mental health at this point were coming from AAMSII, which was based out the the east coast.
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McNulty
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: MD/PA
Gender: Male
I am Dr. Kirkbride
| | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 71 on 6/15/2012 1:00 AM >
| | | | Posted by lilywhitebloodred
You must have missed the whole thing I posted after that comment. This also still proves nothing about what you previously said. It still wasn't built symmetrical and you still can't prove that they ran out of money, because its a fact that they didn't. You were wrong about everything you said and everything I posted can be proven in writing. So in short, gfys..
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Didn't miss it, just collecting my sources. ;)
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Lily White
Location: Rhode Island/NY/Nola
Gender: Male
Im drunk..
| | | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 72 on 6/15/2012 1:32 AM >
| | | | Well fuck me...
Granted it was very apparent through the years that there would be no shortage of female patients, the board did infact submit a report haulting the extention of the wing any further due to this. So whether or not it was a budget issue caused by overspending on unnecessary additions, I can only go on what Ive researched and not make an assumption that this is why.
[last edit 6/15/2012 1:42 AM by Lily White - edited 1 times]
www.fallout-ue.com
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Bricktop
Location: Ct.
Gender: Male
Free as can be, in a world of imprisonment.
| | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 73 on 6/15/2012 1:36 AM >
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Damn right!
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Bricktop
Location: Ct.
Gender: Male
Free as can be, in a world of imprisonment.
| | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 75 on 6/16/2012 9:02 PM >
| | | | Kirkbrides are sexy and all, but I wouldn't kick a nice cottage plan out of bed.
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McNulty
This member has been banned. See the banlist for more information.
Location: MD/PA
Gender: Male
I am Dr. Kirkbride
| | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 77 on 6/17/2012 10:32 PM >
| | | | Posted by Weirdling
They also call back.
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But everybody knows that kirkbrides are freaks in the sheets
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Esoterik
Location: Kansas City
Gender: Male
| | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 78 on 6/18/2012 7:28 PM >
| | | | I explored a Kirkbride once. When I was done I suddenly became an instant expert on the field of mental health and I was so moved and touched by the suffering of patients there I forbade anyone from speaking ill of waterheads in my presence.....all because I explored an abandoned building!!
“You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons.” |
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Cbast1en
Location: The Northeast
Gender: Male
Pastrami Pizza!
| | Re: What Kirkbrides still exist?
<Reply # 79 on 6/19/2012 1:31 AM >
| | | | Posted by Esoterik
I explored a Kirkbride once. When I was done I suddenly became an instant expert on the field of mental health and I was so moved and touched by the suffering of patients there I forbade anyone from speaking ill of waterheads in my presence.....all because I explored an abandoned building!!
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this comment equals .. WIN
This is a really witty signature.. |
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