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I experienced something twice this week that i've never heard of! LTB - Liquid tire balancing.
Two customers came in this week and specifically requested antifreeze balancing. for anyone (like me) not famliar with the concept, you simply dump about a cup of antifreeze into the tire before inflating it, air it up, bolt it on and off you go. Centrifugal force as it rolls pushes the liquid to the low spot in the tire and voila.... balance.
Antifreeze won't ummmm freeze.... and is not harmful to rubber.
Anyways we did the first one, I thought weird but ok. today another guy. So i test drove the truck myself. no shake, no vibration... nothing...on a Dodge Ram POS with 400+km on it.
Anyone heard of, done this or have any thoughts?
odds
Even A Genius Has Questions!?!
I do things because I choose to, not because I have to. My Life, My Rules - No Exceptions! | |
I've heard of using BBs for balancing, but not liquids.
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Posted by Agent Skelly
I've heard of using BBs for balancing, but not liquids.
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Same here. But I do wonder if there are any effects on the rim? Shouldn't be but I still wonder. I used to hate people with face wheels (no outer lip). Stick on weights can be a bitch.
Ezekiel 25:17 | |
Posted by oddspot
Centrifugal force as it rolls pushes the liquid to the low spot in the tire and voila.... balance.
Anyone heard of, done this or have any thoughts?
odds
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I thought an out-of-balance condition was caused by the tire having more weight in one area than another. I didn't think low spots would be a problem.
But, now that I think about it a little more, I guess a low spot would have less material and therefore be lighter. Hmmm.
Centrifugal force is one thing but fluid dynamics is another. Since the antifreeze isn't attached to the tire, wouldn't it always be trying to go slower than the tire?
This is too much to think about. I gonna go get beer.
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same principle as bb's from what i've been reading.
i was reading that in some heavy equipment, even golf balls. go figure
there is a product on the market called Delta something or other, and it's a liquid balancer.
Even A Genius Has Questions!?!
I do things because I choose to, not because I have to. My Life, My Rules - No Exceptions! | |
Posted by That 1 Guy
I thought an out-of-balance condition was caused by the tire having more weight in one area than another. I didn't think low spots would be a problem.
But, now that I think about it a little more, I guess a low spot would have less material and therefore be lighter. Hmmm.
Centrifugal force is one thing but fluid dynamics is another. Since the antifreeze isn't attached to the tire, wouldn't it always be trying to go slower than the tire?
This is too much to think about. I gonna go get beer.
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correct, more weight in one area then another, usually caused by the overlap in rubber where the tire is "joined' during manufacturing. the weight on the opposite side of that area offsets the heavy spot from the overlap and balances the tire. That spot is usually a low spot on the tire, though it's pretty small. i have no explanation of centrifugal force vs. fluid dynamics... but i drove it myself and i'm convinced.
Even A Genius Has Questions!?!
I do things because I choose to, not because I have to. My Life, My Rules - No Exceptions! | |
Let me preface this by saying that I've never manufactured tires and therefore I'm no tire construction expert.
Why would a tire need to be 'joined'? Aren't they molded as one piece?
Also understand, I'm not saying it doesn't work. For whatever reason this subject has captured my imagination and I'd like to know more.
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You know, I've never heard of LTB, but I could see how it'd work. I don't think the antifreeze would really have any adverse effects on the rim, I mean your engine components are steel, aluminum (or cast iron), and it doesn't do anything bad to them.
It would be a mess breaking down the tire though, if you weren't aware of the fluid in it.
Oh, and That 1 Guy, here's a good link about tire construction:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tire1.htm
[last edit 1/18/2010 1:15 AM by bandi - edited 1 times]
hi i like cars | |
Thanks, bandi! The tire is molded but the tread is cut to length and presumably 'joined'.
I really didn't know that.
Off to read your link more closely.
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Posted by bandi
You know, I've never heard of LTB, but I could see how it'd work. I don't think the antifreeze would really have any adverse effects on the rim, I mean your engine components are steel, aluminum (or cast iron), and it doesn't do anything bad to them.
It would be a mess breaking down the tire though, if you weren't aware of the fluid in it.
Oh, and That 1 Guy, here's a good link about tire construction:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tire1.htm
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you've never broken down a tire that the last technician that mounted it globbed fifteen pounds of bead sealer in?
oh that's a joy right there.
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Oooohhhh I have. I've changed probably close to 100,000 tires in my time.
My favourite is that inflate & seal shit... the customer always forgets to mention they used that crap. There's a reason it says to inform tire professional that it's been used on the can... it's very explosive when contained. So, one spark from the bead breaker, and there's the possibility of a nice explosion. Also, it sucks when it sprays you in the eyes.
hi i like cars | |
Farm tractors have liquid tire ballast added, usually in the form of liquid calcium chloride, which weighs about 40% more than water. Tractor tires are usually filled up to 70% or so full....this increases weight, and therefore traction, and lowers the tractor's center of gravity.
Never heard of it on cars
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. | |
Posted by bandi
Oooohhhh I have. I've changed probably close to 100,000 tires in my time.
My favourite is that inflate & seal shit... the customer always forgets to mention they used that crap. There's a reason it says to inform tire professional that it's been used on the can... it's very explosive when contained. So, one spark from the bead breaker, and there's the possibility of a nice explosion. Also, it sucks when it sprays you in the eyes.
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i use the green shit on my leaky mags, i know what you mean though, that stuff is nasty too, not as bad as the inflate and seal.
Montreal Expos 1969-2004 Forever Proud Lets Keep The Dream Alive | |
american wire wheel. a m/c wheel maker uses mercury in a rubber tube "glued" to the inside or the rim.
When I say I'm 'clean and sober', it means I've showered and I'm headed to the liquor store. | |
Posted by Samurai
you've never broken down a tire that the last technician that mounted it globbed fifteen pounds of bead sealer in?
oh that's a joy right there.
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Even better is when they bring in that set of wagon spoke rusted white rims that have 31-10.50s mounted on em and have behind the shed for 10 years. Stagnant water is awesome.
Ezekiel 25:17 | |
Posted by Mister Blister
Farm tractors have liquid tire ballast added, usually in the form of liquid calcium chloride, which weighs about 40% more than water. Tractor tires are usually filled up to 70% or so full....this increases weight, and therefore traction, and lowers the tractor's center of gravity.
Never heard of it on cars
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we are not talking about ballasting tires which would serve no purpose other than to increase unsprung weight and thus fuel consumption in a passenger car... kind of pointless to ballast a tire/wheel assembly if youve already paid a premium for alloy wheels so as to reduce unsprung weight in the first place?
delta's ltb goes for $50/quart. i might go for this if it actually increased the tire life by a measurable amount. if i were to use it, i would have the tire run-up on a balancing machine and only add enough compound to slightly exceed the off-balance value, to keep the unsprung weight as low as possible. a lot of people do not understand the effect high unsprung weight has on a vehicle's handling characteristics on the highway. heavy tire/wheel combinations have a lot more inertia which results in reduced acceleration, increased braking distance/energy, and reduced tire contact with the road due to increased oscillation: the shock absorber has to work much harder to calm the wheel down after a bump. putting big fat flashy wheels on your car might look great but perform even more poorly than the conservative ugly 14" steelies you took off of it.
dynamic balancing with lead weights is still the best solution for passenger car tire/wheel assemblies because they do not move, are no heavier than necessary, and do not have to be at a certain temperature or be shocked by oscillations in order to work. ltb isnt going to perform any miracles on your handling, performance or comfort unless you've already made a poor tire/wheel selection or have some other defect in your suspension in which case, focus on that area and spend your money on the actual problem. it should also be noted that for linehaul trucks, balancing media was developed for no other reason than to reduce the truck's operating costs. on a linehaul truck with 18 tires each costing $2-300 apiece 15% tire life gains make good financial sense; on a car, no.
$50/quart to save 15% on tires? on a car? if you can afford to throw $50 at ltb compounds you probably already spent that 15% at the tanning salon...
Mentos... The Freshmaker | |
But those lead weights look like hell on the outside of my rims. I had heard of some LTB stuff that is put in and the tire is run for some period of time to place the stuff and it cures and stays in place. Anyone else hear of this?
"She ain't no Cinderella when she's gettin' undressed, 'cause she rocks it like the naughty Wicked Witch of the West!" -Nickelback -Shakin' Hands-
"What makes bad kids bad? What makes them do the things they do? BOOZE, BABES, & BAD GUYS!" -Scum of the Earth -I Am The Scum- | |
Posted by MrMusik
But those lead weights look like hell on the outside of my rims. I had heard of some LTB stuff that is put in and the tire is run for some period of time to place the stuff and it cures and stays in place. Anyone else hear of this?
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While I know some folks (many of my friends included) hate the "look" of the weight on the outside of the rim, I will take a excellent balance over looks anyday. Then again guess it depends on what the vehicle is intended for, looks or performance.
Ezekiel 25:17 | |
I asked one of my coworkers who has a side job at a tire shop and he told me with LTB you are suposed to indicate it on the tire somehow.
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There are also many, many ways around having the weights on the outside face of the rim... adhesive weights, static balancing, Optima balancing, etc, etc, etc...
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