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I was trained off the double tap, and instead to fire the entire pistol mag into the hostile, if you can keep count -1 so one still in chamber so its good to go on simple mag swap.
opinions?
ducky 999 |
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Keep a high capacity mag filled with hollows (teflon tipped if you can get them), and one shot would do it... Two shots will be more than enough!
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but you want to guarentee it was enough, handguns have a habit of sucking balls in terms of stopping power.
ducky 999 |
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Posted by saceist
Keep a high capacity mag filled with hollows (teflon tipped if you can get them), and one shot would do it... Two shots will be more than enough!
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Teflon coated pistol ammo is heavily regulated. IF you could get it, the last thing you want to do is actually use it in a defense situation. A good prosecutor would put you away for premeditation and a host of other things, let alone what the BATF would do to you.
On topic though, I was trained to use only the ammunition required to end a threat. Anything beyond that point is excessive force, which you can, and probably will go to jail for.
For a pistol stick with the Federal Personal Defense (renamed from Hydroshok) or the like. Best course of action to do is find out what your local PD uses. That way if you are involved in a self defense case, all you have to do is reference the fact that the local police also carry the same round to protect themselves.
Best rifle rounds for home defense are the Hornaday TAP. I've been trying to get some up here in alaska to do a review on, but no luck so far. Great word going around though. (really is just a relabeled V-Max round but still)
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the instructors on one my advanced combat trg's was who said a full mag dump into hostile....it ensures he wont get up 10 mins later and attack from the rear.
ducky 999 |
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Well, the training between the US and canada is different i guess. The legal system is screwed to hell over here. Pretty much if you shoot more then necessary to stop the threat, odds are that you will be bubbas' bitch.
I'm not a fan of surprise buttsecks
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also, its armed forces trg, which is probably different....as generally, killing the guy is the whole point behind shooting him.
ducky 999 |
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Very late on this one . . .
Shoot until the threat is neutralized.
Several center of mass hits from a service pistol are going to drop most human beings.
Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings. |
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^
but I can usually unload a magazine in a .45/10mm or a compact frame pistol (7-12 rounds kinda thing) before the hostile is on the floor. So my mag dump is just that, firing until hes down. 
...and now to try and chase some memories away.
ducky 999 |
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I load my personal side with alternating expanding telfon coating rnds and then AP/thick jacketed, no front indent.
that way, low level amour or not. i"ll get into the body. Am using glock 20c now btw. (figure might as mention the compensator too)
[last edit 8/5/2009 2:03 AM by rz350 - edited 1 times]
ducky 999 |
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My understanding is that Teflon (c) does nothing to penetrate armor. The rounds that use Teflon (c) are only coated with it to make the round glide through the barrel smoothly and keep from damaging it. The reason this is necessary is because the round is made of a much more dense material than led and it's that material that penetrates the armor.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm just sayin'.
Tetanus for Breakfast!
http://www.shatteredshutter.com |
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there was a projectile I think it was KTW, the media dubbed it the "cop killer" round because it did have to ability to penetrate some levels of soft body armor
the round was marketed in .357 first and their demo showed it going throw both sides of a V8 engine block!
that lead to some AP round legislation I think, then the next media big scoop was Winchester Black Talon, a round so evil wicked and deadly that it was designed to inflict serious injury or death on peoples...
no shit? Im sure somewhere in there this round discriminated against minorities as well, but what these dumbshits in the media fail to recognize are the horrifying close range effects of the 18th century .75 cal Brown Bess Musket or the tumbling effect of the old 55gr load in 5.56 NATO etc.
ever seen pics of what a Glaser "Safety" slug does inside someones belly?
there was some pretty gruesome website I saw been a long time ago that had actual photos, some M.E. some crime scene of gunshot wounds, very explicit, some in color all pretty horrifying, didnt bother me too much til I saw a pic of a small kid with a contact wound to the side of the head allegedly by his own father, I had a little trouble with that one
[last edit 8/19/2009 10:51 PM by Explorer Zero - edited 1 times]
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ps, I think almost all the cheap and plentiful COM BLOCK 7.62x39 steel core will go through class 2 3 or 8? etc soft body armor like it wasnt even there, I believe you dont stop that with anything less than ceramic but Ive havent kept pace with this technology
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My SAPI plate stopped a 7.62x39 round.
There are new and better weaves that will stop the bullet, but the intrusion will still cause massive internal trauma. You will still need hospitalization and will be in critical condition . . .
Lead slugs are about as big as your thumb and will make a wound channel the size of a cantaloupe.
It's pretty ghastly.
Shotguns carve out bone, muscle, and flesh.
That is why God gave them to us on the 8th day.
Posted by 2Xplorations
ps, I think almost all the cheap and plentiful COM BLOCK 7.62x39 steel core will go through class 2 3 or 8? etc soft body armor like it wasnt even there, I believe you dont stop that with anything less than ceramic but Ive havent kept pace with this technology
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Posted by 2Xplorations
ever seen pics of what a Glaser "Safety" slug does inside someones belly?
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Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings. |
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Posted by RevSM
My understanding is that Teflon (c) does nothing to penetrate armor. The rounds that use Teflon (c) are only coated with it to make the round glide through the barrel smoothly and keep from damaging it. The reason this is necessary is because the round is made of a much more dense material than led and it's that material that penetrates the armor.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm just sayin'.
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The funny thing is that the teflon residue will turn into acid and damage your barrel over time. Look up what happens to teflon when you add a high temperature.
+1 on devilc's 7.62x39 comments. There is some armor that can stop the round. Now the blunt trauma that happens when it is stopped can still kill you lol
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I personally think emptying a whole clip into somebody is a horrible idea. If you cant do what you need to do with 2 or 3 rounds you dont need to be shooting a gun. granted im not in the military or anything but im a pretty damn good shot with a pistol and may the need arise I'll put 2 hydroshocks in the chest and one in the head. No need to worry about him getting back up and Ive still got plenty to go around in case his buddies decide to join the festivities.
I really dont get the point of emptying a clip. I find it hilarious all the times ive heard of police shootouts where 10 cops put out 200rds and 1 happens to graze the perp's shoulder.
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all shots must hit centre of mass, head or neck. We debate it all the time, the mag dump. I like the idea, cause my rifle is my main weapon, so if I'm going pistol transistion, I want that threat deader then dead.
with full power rifle, (7.62x51/54, .303, 30-06 ect) usually one shot to centre is enough.
intermediate rounds we like 3 shots.
and I've had more then one 7.62x39 and 5.56mm nato stopped by good body armour.
but that good stuff is expensive, heavy, confining and really hot. So its risk/benefit thing.
I'm talking for military or PMC use btw, not self defence in your own country, so the laws play much less of a factor.
[last edit 9/2/2009 3:56 AM by rz350 - edited 1 times]
ducky 999 |
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Ahh I see. I was deff speaking from a self defense mindset, not military. Still I would leave a few in the clip in case another hostile rounds the corner and now not only have you emptied your handgun like you said your rifle is also in between mag changes or out of commission for some other reason.
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well, you have your fire team partner, you should of reloaded both if your rifle is broken you conserve pistol ammo until someone gets you a fresh one (usually a sect comd or a plt comd will hands theirs off to you if yours is FUBAR, as they are focused on leading not shooting anyways), I think its .7 seconds maximum time to reload. and you have your bayo and entrenching tool. and if its room clearing, grenades are a viable option.
ducky 999 |
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Some good insight there. Now where did I put my spare grenades again? Oops mine say smoke grenade on the little cardboard shell. Im guessing they give you guys something with a little more bang for your buck ;)
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