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Nice work Gardeners,,
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Indeed it was a fine excursion, I was glad to have been privy. One of my favorite parts was looking at JP 4 stories down, after being our canary with the detector, and him frantically waving the chem light " Its good". Just great, that was world class UE sexy. Cheers all TL.
Death Sentence- Live to die (good ole one)
http://theaumc.com/forums | |
Awesome work guys.
any guesses as to age of the tunnels or methods? They look pretty rough hewn, so I'm assuming hand picks and whatnot. Very exciting.
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Posted by Local Hero
Awesome work guys.
any guesses as to age of the tunnels or methods? They look pretty rough hewn, so I'm assuming hand picks and whatnot. Very exciting.
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A bit more than that.
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS | |
Great pictures.....but - a bit more information, please? What area are they in? What is the concrete work shown? Have you established the period they were built in? Find any documentation (maps, comments, etc.) that could give us more info on them?
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Posted by anvil
Great pictures.....but - a bit more information, please? What area are they in? What is the concrete work shown? Have you established the period they were built in? Find any documentation (maps, comments, etc.) that could give us more info on them?
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We could provide all manner of documentation, time-lines, location details. But that's not going to happen. And you know why.
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS | |
No, I don't know why. Not asking for specific location details. Just general area of the city. Shouldn't be a problem, if they're as important - to this thread especially - as they could potentially be. Besides, if this kind of info is too delicate for public consumption, you could easily provide it in the restricted area, or by other means (i.e. PM). There's no reasonable reason not to. Three pictures of a cave with some concrete workings without any other information is not enough, quite frankly, to disprove or prove anything. Not asking for anything unusual, just for you to put your pictures into context. And you should be more than willing, at this point, to give those of us that have hung in there for so long a bit more to go on.....
If you won't/can't - no problem - but then the question that drives this thread remains unanswered.
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Posted by anvil
No, I don't know why. Not asking for specific location details. Just general area of the city. Shouldn't be a problem, if they're as important - to this thread especially - as they could potentially be. Besides, if this kind of info is too delicate for public consumption, you could easily provide it in the restricted area, or by other means (i.e. PM). There's no reasonable reason not to. Three pictures of a cave with some concrete workings without any other information is not enough, quite frankly, to disprove or prove anything. Not asking for anything unusual, just for you to put your pictures into context. And you should be more than willing, at this point, to give those of us that have hung in there for so long a bit more to go on.....
If you won't/can't - no problem - but then the question that drives this thread remains unanswered.
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Over to you, Peterman.
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS | |
You have the length. You know that anything that long covers a good area of Victoria. We are not anthropologists nor are we the people who built this thing and thus cannot tell you exactly what its purpose is. It is at our discretion to release as much material as we feel is necessary to get across the point we are trying to make. The point here being that we are not claiming to have answered the original question that drives this thread. Our work was just a contribution to the ongoing pursuit. The most important thing that came of this excursion (for me), was that is easily opens up the potential for more spaces like this one.
Now that the bedrock-predicament-argument has been made obsolete...Next stop:
Chinatown
I'm going hunting for mysteries, cover me. | |
"Our work was just a contribution to the ongoing pursuit. The most important thing that came of this excursion (for me), was that is easily opens up the potential for more spaces like this one."
Translation - these aren't old tunnels. Nice tunnels. Fine tunnels. But they're relatively modern service tunnels. Correct me if I'm wrong.
"You have the length. You know that anything that long covers a good area of Victoria. We are not anthropologists nor are we the people who built this thing and thus cannot tell you exactly what its purpose is. "
Fine - but there's others of us who's abilities and interests lean more towards the research/documentation/information end of things - which is part of what this forum is supposed to be about - people with varied skills and interests, coming together to share their experiences, learn from others, and cooperate to achieve more than they could alone.
"It is at our discretion to release as much material as we feel is necessary to get across the point we are trying to make."
First of all, there are those of us here that have been here a long time on these forums, contributed to discussions, added to the knowledge base, etc. We've paid our dues. I may not have been able to physically come down and explore with you, but I hope that I've contributed in my own way, with the information I've been able to provide. What's the deal, here? We share what we know and discover, but you guys hold back, even refusing to share it on a restricted basis (PMs, non-public forums)? Some kind of stratified urban exploration class system?
And......You aren't making a point, without revealing even a basic amount of information. We have the length, and that they're somewhere in the vicinity of Victoria. Great. That really narrows it down, and really helps me to track down more information through research. I'm sure glad everyone else here isn't playing by your rules - because there wouldn't be much information here if we all kept everything to ourselves.
"Hey guys, here's a picture of a house. Where is it? Not going to tell you. It is at my discretion to release as much material.......yadayadayada." "Take a look at these really cool photos I took of this abandoned townsite that no one else knows about. What's that? No, I can't provide ANY information on it. It's at my discretion."
No one ever doubted that tunnels exist under Victoria - the City has installed tunnels in modern times to carry services, etc. That wasn't the question. The tunnels pictured are very interesting. They're extremely cool, and I"m sure that spelunkers would be ecstatic about them. As I said - great work finding these tunnels. Nice pictures. Kudos to all involved.
But..... If your tunnel was built 20 years ago, it has nothing to do with the issue of "secret" (and, I have always assumed, old) tunnels under Victoria - i.e. tunnels that were built in the 19th and early 20th centuries, that are not part of the current infrastructure, and were never commonly known about. There was never any doubt that people have blasted the bedrock to build tunnels - the City does it anytime they need to. Those aren't what we were talking about was it?
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What I am essentially got from your post was that the partakers in this expedition owe it to the members of this forum and anyone who views it, to release more information which could be sufficient enough to provide many people with the information needed to find what we found. We do know more facts about this conduit, and do have more photographs, but I can't help but argue my point that it is up to us collectively to release what we want. Just as it is up to anybody on this forum to post as much or as little as they wish.
"Translation - these aren't old tunnels. Nice tunnels. Fine tunnels. But they're relatively modern service tunnels. Correct me if I'm wrong."
These are old tunnels. Nice tunnels. Fine tunnels. They are relatively old, old enough that some of the people who built these tunnels with their own hands are probably not far from 6 feet underground.
I must reiterate...we ARE making a point. The point is as I said that we have debunked the theory that these tunnels couldn't have been built under our city because, among other things, the construction would be so noisy as to alert people to its wherabouts. Many, many people doubted the existence of such structures as this.
You are right, there was never any debate to weather or not minor service tunnels or extended basements or such existed.
As for what you say about the research and documentation of said space. I think it is reasonable to not be completely revealed into the public eye, that is for obvious reasons. And as far as PM'ing those with full membership. Full membership is but a title and does not officially give anyone the right to be more enlightened with details than the rest of the UE community.
I'm going hunting for mysteries, cover me. | |
"What I am essentially got from your post was that the partakers in this expedition owe it to the members of this forum and anyone who views it, to release more information which could be sufficient enough to provide many people with the information needed to find what we found."
You're consistently missing my point. I'm not looking for information that would "provide many people with the information needed to find what (you) found." I've said that several times, its not what I'm looking for, its not expected/desired/requested. I am merely asking for ANY information that would narrow down where these tunnels exist. Telling us that they're in the downtown core wouldn't compromise anything or anyone. Telling us that you figure they're old because they connect up two buildings built in the 19th century wouldn't either.
[last edit 4/29/2007 11:43 PM by anvil - edited 2 times]
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Posted by anvil
And......You aren't making a point, without revealing even a basic amount of information. |
Nothing personal here from my POV, Anvil, but it's seems kind of ironic that you are seeking basic information, about a major discovery, yet you choose not to even list the continent that you are based on.
My sister is Charlotte Light and Dark. Who am I?
Farewell and thank you... "I was doing something that I thought could have some impact someday. In many ways, it's really these photographs that kept me going creatively." Dennis Hopper | |
What this discovery accomplishes is that it finally and completely refutes a claim made by one of the thread's contributors that tunnels could not have been blasted through bedrock within the city limits (as these limits were defined at the time of construction). That claim is untrue. We have irrefutable proof that tunnels were indeed blasted through solid bedrock within the city limits.
THIS is the best reason I can think of for not providing full disclosure.
Additionally, this job began months ago...months...(full credit goes to JPeterman and Tanuki for the endless research they did, and to A.Lien for providing the cover of 'respectability' in our efforts to breach official obstructions)...and there were endless meetings, planning sessions, contingency/emergency planning, and those efforts...the hard work...paid off.
If you're really interested, you can develope your own plan, and execute it accordingly.
I'm sure the GCG crew is in agreement.
[last edit 4/30/2007 3:28 AM by KublaKhan - edited 1 times]
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS | |
"Nothing personal here from my POV, Anvil, but it's seems kind of ironic that you are seeking basic information, about a major discovery, yet you choose not to even list the continent that you are based on."
What continent I'm on? No attempt to hide anything - Vancouver Island. Lived in Victoria, Nanaimo, Campbell River and Port Alberni. B.A. in History and Anthropology. Focus in both majors on British Columbia. Extensively explored many sites in the Kootenays, Slocan, Boundary and Vancouver Island. Focus on mining and rail history - more generally, industrial history. There. Now there's no irony in sight.
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Haha, I see an Irony Mr. Smarty Pants, all that ejumacation and the bad news bears found it and you can't, har har har. 
Death Sentence- Live to die (good ole one)
http://theaumc.com/forums | |
What - I didn't find the tunnels and they did? Guess that might have something to do with the fact that I wasn't looking, do you think? Betcha if you look back through my posts, though, that my "ejumacation" has helped me provide a whole bunch of historical info that the Bad News Bears didn't have, on various sites and issues. We all have contributions to make - not the same contributions, but equally valid ones. Har, har, har......
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Well this has really heated up then hasn't it?? Good thing I say. N.
Operating Entirely With Bad Intentions | |
Posted by Team Leader
Haha, I see an Irony Mr. Smarty Pants, all that ejumacation and the bad news bears found it and you can't, har har har.
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...yer killin me.
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS | |
Let's all step back from The Idiot Switch and take a moment to appreciate the contributions of The Greater Community of Under the Garden City™.
It should be noted that many people contributed to the discovery, and that their contributions, in whatever form, assisted in directing various areas of research and exploration.
The 1500+ replies to my initial question have greatly enhanced my understanding of this local urban legend. The last two years have been fascinating, and many of the people I've met along the way have become good friends, and trusted colleagues.
That trust is the foundation upon which this discovery was made.
The flesh and bones rewards...which is to say the locating of and breach/access into the tunnel...required a bit more information than what is generally found in the Under the Garden City thread. The GCG crew assembled vast resources and covered a spectrum of data, and then spent considerable time analyzing and planning.
Those efforts were outside the realm of public knowledge/access. I've listed my main reason for keeping this under wraps.
You may be assured that there will be more discoveries, and more information about those discoveries, in the time ahead. As Peterman noted, this is really a new beginning.
The tunnels are there to stay. They aren't going anywhere, and there are no plans to destroy them. They are an important part of this city. Knowing that should be enough to motivate even the most jaded and cynical intergeek to get off his/her ass to dig out the resources and pour through research and sniff around and get some huevos to get inside the tunnel. It's a hard task. But it's not impossible.
Let me know how it works out.
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS |
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