|
|
Why do Muslims commit the broad majority of rapes in Northern European nations and the UK?
Discuss.
Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings. | |
Do you have a source for that?
“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”
-Madeline Albright | |
Posted by DevilC
Muslims commit the broad majority of rapes in Northern European nations and the UK
|
It says so right here.
mutantMandias may cause dizziness, sexual nightmares, and sleep crime. ++++ mutantMandias has to return some videotapes ++++ Do not taunt mutantMandias
mutantMandias is something more than human, more than a computer. mutantMandias is a murderously intelligent, sensually self-programmed, non-being | |
There are many sources discussing the fact that the majority of all crimes in Norse nations are now committed by Islamic invaders immigrants.
Posted by splumer
Do you have a source for that?
|
Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings. | |
There's also sources claiming atheists/agnostics are underrepresented in US violent crime stats and sourcing linking conservatism (in general) to domestic violence.
Nevertheless, correlation doesn't imply causation.
“Civilization today reminds me of an ape with a blowtorch playing in a room full of dynamite." | |
Tell me about the demography of this group.
Posted by jukebox fuckup
There's also sources claiming atheists/agnostics are underrepresented in US violent crime stats ...
|
Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings. | |
Posted by DevilC
Tell me about the demography of this group.
|
I'm surprised that you sound surprised, for no reason other than that it is widely referenced/acknowledged. These findings aren't without limitations, but they're the best we've got:
"Compared with Christians, other religious groups are seen by the chaplains as considerably smaller in size. Altogether, non-Christian religious groups are seen as comprising about 18% of the state prison population....Further, according to the chaplains surveyed, inmates with no religious preference appear to be a small minority. On average, chaplains say that about 11% of the inmate population is atheist, agnostic or has no particular religious affiliation. The median estimate of inmates with no religious preference is 5%. By comparison, in the U.S. public as a whole, half (50%) of adults identify as Protestants and about a quarter (23%) are Catholics. About one-in-five adults (19%) are religiously unaffiliated (describing their religion as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular”). Smaller numbers describe themselves as Mormon (2%), Jewish (2%), Muslim (1%), Orthodox (1%) or another faith (3%).18
http://www.pewforu...-perspectives.aspx
There's another frequently cited stat that atheists make up .2% of the federal prison population. I cannot find the link to the original source, despite the fact that it is referenced on every website, ever.
Among my search I stumbled upon this. Freaky.
"Men who considered religion as very important placed more blame on rape victims than men for whom religion had less importance." http://www.d.umn.e...hsReligiosity.html
Also, consider that we have the largest Christian population in the industrialized world (http://www.pewforu...stianity-exec.aspx), yet our crime rate is staggering relative to heavily atheistic/agnostic counterparts. Those "Muslims run-a-muck" in Europe are child's play, compared to violence in the U. S.
[last edit 7/9/2013 11:32 PM by jukebox fuckup - edited 1 times]
“Civilization today reminds me of an ape with a blowtorch playing in a room full of dynamite." | |
Redneck hicks that vote red and run bumper stickers from the Bush era are the source of a lot of domestic violence. Primarily white, middle class guys.
Source: My wife, who works in a domestic violence shelter.
PM me if you want to get join our board and get fit! | |
Posted by jukebox fuckup
Also, consider that we have the largest Christian population in the industrialized world (http://www.pewforu...stianity-exec.aspx), yet our crime rate is staggering relative to heavily atheistic/agnostic counterparts. Those "Muslims run-a-muck" in Europe are child's play, compared to violence in the U. S.
|
Indeed, since much of Europe is non-religious (as compared to the US) it may be that the more religious people are the ones committing rapes. This might explain why Muslims are disproportionately represented, if that is true.
But I think the broader issue is why religious people worldwide don't seem to have a problem with rape. The answer, IMHO, is that most religions (those which comprise the overwhelming majority of people in the world) see women as property.
“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”
-Madeline Albright | |
Posted by splumer
But I think the broader issue is why religious people worldwide don't seem to have a problem with rape. The answer, IMHO, is that most religions (those which comprise the overwhelming majority of people in the world) see women as property.
|
your inability to distinguish between religious beliefs, socioeconomic factors and cultural values is astonishing. if you knew the difference, you would be able to explain why the majority of muslims don't support islamist jihad, and a minority do -- or why supporters of jihad tend to be concentrated in impoverished countries. i suspect you genuinely don't know, which means you should probably stay out of conversations like this as you obfuscate with wrongheaded pop secular-humanist sociology what is an otherwise important discussion.
Do you really think religious people worldwide don't have a problem with rape? Is that really an argument you want to go on record as having made, with any level of intellectual seriousness?
Your humble opinion that most religions, comprising the overwhelming majority of people, "view women as property" is not correct and not informed. do muslims from certain cultural backgrounds view women as property? yes. do other muslims from other cultural backgrounds support the equality of women? also yes. what is the key difference? socioeconomics and cultural values.
It is due to a major religion that women aren't viewed as property in the western world today -- and you would know that, if you knew the history of ethics and morality. women's suffrage and the abolition of slavery were inextricably linked to and inspired by the tenets of protestant christianity. in fact, the atheists of that day had a pretty dismal ethical record and were altogether absent when it came to the question of equal rights. that slave holders were also christians is beside the point: it was the tenets of christianity that inspired the abolition movement. note here the important interplay between religious belief, cultural values and socioeconomic factors. you can't hold up a sign saying "christians promoted slavery" while hiding a sign saying "christians ended slavery" behind your back. to do so is demonstrating only ignorance of the facts and an inability to track with the nuance.
That the bulk of modern american ethics is grounded in protestant christianity is an inconvenient fact you try to ignore. that your own ethical framework is a result of protestant christianity seems to elude you.
don't go cherry picking verses from the bible, quran or talmud either, to say "LOLBUT LOOK, SLAVES, WOMEN, MURDER". what a book happens to say in one place doesn't characterize or define all the people who read it -- particularly outside the context of all the other things the book has to say. it's lazy humanist pseudo-intellectualism like this, alongside lazy religious fundamentalism making analogous arguments from the other side, that makes this topic so pointless to discuss among half-informed internet armchair professors. (there is an implied "like you" dangling off that sentence, in case you missed it)
this is one of the most godawful things about the internet. people tend to consume only the information that confirms their bias; go to forums where the in-group bashes the out-group; become convinced through an absence of challenged assumptions that they somehow have discovered the ultimate truth about any given topic.
like with most things in life, this is an incredibly complex issue. your self-serving characterization of it as "the fault of religion" is simple silliness.
Freedom breeds war; and Peace, slavery. So it shall be forevermore: Men who love freedom buy it with their lives, and lovers of peace with their freedom. | |
Posted by DevilC
Why do Muslims commit the broad majority of rapes in Northern European nations and the UK?
Discuss.
|
because of a complex interplay between socioeconomics, demographics and cultural values.
the majority of muslims committing rapes in northern europe are also immigrants. did islam make them immigrate? did immigration make them rapists?
Freedom breeds war; and Peace, slavery. So it shall be forevermore: Men who love freedom buy it with their lives, and lovers of peace with their freedom. | |
Posted by jukebox fuckup
Nevertheless, correlation doesn't imply causation.
|
exactly. instead of a wall of text, i guess i could have just quoted this 
Freedom breeds war; and Peace, slavery. So it shall be forevermore: Men who love freedom buy it with their lives, and lovers of peace with their freedom. | |
Posted by Aleksandar
women's suffrage and the abolition of slavery were inextricably linked to and inspired by the tenets of protestant christianity.
|
The tenets of Christianity also historically embraced the subjugation of women and slavery, so while it is obviously historically true that Christians and Christian movements were the impetus and backbone for abolition and women's suffrage, it is not exactly fair to say that it was thanks to religion.
It might be a truthier truth to say that morality and ethics, while definitively independent of religion, occasionally comes to be a goal of religious people, and that is swell, but there is, as you say, an...
Posted by Aleksandar
important interplay between religious belief, cultural values and socioeconomic factors.
|
Thanks be to God that, from time to time, religious people actually line up on the side of good, due to those extenuating circumstances.
Posted by Aleksandar
That the bulk of modern american ethics is grounded in protestant christianity is an inconvenient fact you try to ignore. that your own ethical framework is a result of protestant christianity seems to elude you.
|
Modern American ethics is what it is. Yes, the philosophical line that can be drawn to get there from the past certainly goes through significant Christian belief systems, but the same can be said for anything American, because the vast majority of thinkers, politicians, and philosophers in European and American history were Christian.
Understanding the right thing to do is not dependent upon Christianity, or any other religion. Sometimes, like anyone, religious people move in the direction of good, but they also sometimes move in the direction of evil. Religious people aren't the only ones who occasionally move toward evil, but they have the strongest support system for maintaining and propagating it.
So, if you want to say that my belief that killing people is bad is based on Christianity, you're free to think that. And, of course, I have been shaped by the world where I grew up, so I cannot deny that my views of what deserves respect are, at least initially, a function of that world.
But religion does not create ethics. Ethics are about behaviors which allow humans to survive with the least suffering. If religions were really about ethics, that would be a very nice thing, but they are all corrupt to the core. It is possible to find comfort, solace, and truth in them, but every one soaks up and gets imbued with evil over time.
mutantMandias may cause dizziness, sexual nightmares, and sleep crime. ++++ mutantMandias has to return some videotapes ++++ Do not taunt mutantMandias
mutantMandias is something more than human, more than a computer. mutantMandias is a murderously intelligent, sensually self-programmed, non-being | |
Posted by MutantMandias
all
|
no argument from me on any of this. good points to consider and certainly help round out the conversation.
Freedom breeds war; and Peace, slavery. So it shall be forevermore: Men who love freedom buy it with their lives, and lovers of peace with their freedom. | |
Posted by Aleksandar
because of a complex interplay between socioeconomics, demographics and cultural values.
the majority of muslims committing rapes in northern europe are also immigrants. did islam make them immigrate? did immigration make them rapists?
|
Win!
Imagine, Muslims are not impervious to the same criminogenic factors that plague a predominately Christian country such as our own.
[last edit 7/11/2013 12:28 AM by jukebox fuckup - edited 1 times]
“Civilization today reminds me of an ape with a blowtorch playing in a room full of dynamite." | |
Thank you, MM. The only thing I have to add is that one doesn't need to cherry pick from the Bible to demonstrate Christians' opinions of women. I think the ridiculous anti-abortion legislation that has been passed recently, plus the inane comments several Republican politicos have made regarding rape is all the example you need. "Property" might be a bit strong, but certainly nowhere near equal.
| Do you really think religious people worldwide don't have a problem with rape? Is that really an argument you want to go on record as having made, with any level of intellectual seriousness? |
"Don't have a problem" again might be a little strong, I agree, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that those who are religious tend to blame the victim. So yes, I stand by my statement.
| That the bulk of modern american ethics is grounded in protestant christianity is an inconvenient fact you try to ignore. that your own ethical framework is a result of protestant christianity seems to elude you. |
Bullshit. Christianity has been dragged kicking and screaming into a modern ethical framework by society at large. Open your eyes if you want examples. It still resists modern ethics. The birth control issue is a perfect example. Something like 90 percent of Catholics (Ok, not Protestant) polled admitted to using birth control, yet Catholic hospitals won't cover it on their health insurance. Do I need to cite more?
“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”
-Madeline Albright | |
Posted by Aleksandar
Do you really think religious people worldwide don't have a problem with rape? Is that really an argument you want to go on record as having made, with any level of intellectual seriousness?
|
And, regarding that point, yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that a traditional religious perspective has absolutely no problem with some things which we now call rape.
mutantMandias may cause dizziness, sexual nightmares, and sleep crime. ++++ mutantMandias has to return some videotapes ++++ Do not taunt mutantMandias
mutantMandias is something more than human, more than a computer. mutantMandias is a murderously intelligent, sensually self-programmed, non-being | |
Posted by splumer
Bullshit. Christianity has been dragged kicking and screaming into a modern ethical framework by society at large. Open your eyes if you want examples. It still resists modern ethics. The birth control issue is a perfect example. Something like 90 percent of Catholics (Ok, not Protestant) polled admitted to using birth control, yet Catholic hospitals won't cover it on their health insurance. Do I need to cite more?
|
Here in lies the problem: there is an imbalance of power within the subgroup, which ignores the masses (e.g., 90% of Catholics don't condemn HBC). The problem of imbalance of power is hardly unique to Catholics. At any rate, I invite any opposition to HBC to live with periods that last for months or induce fainting/vomiting/seizures-- being a woman can really suck and all of these problems are typically attenuated with HBC.
Also, resistance to change is not unique to Catholics. It's seen in all systems, religious or otherwise.
“Civilization today reminds me of an ape with a blowtorch playing in a room full of dynamite." | |
Posted by MutantMandias
And, regarding that point, yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that a traditional religious perspective has absolutely no problem with some things which we now call rape.
|
that's amphibologous. what is a traditional religious perspective? what are some things now called rape? your lack of specificity isn't useful for proving your case, and doesn't give me anything to work with to disprove it.
Freedom breeds war; and Peace, slavery. So it shall be forevermore: Men who love freedom buy it with their lives, and lovers of peace with their freedom. | |
Posted by splumer
demonstrate Christians' opinions of women.
|
Of course, Christianity is a remarkably diverse and complex global religion whose various adherents espouse virtually the entire spectrum of ethical beliefs. your generalization is invalid and is not useful to define the target of your argument.
Posted by splumer
ridiculous anti-abortion legislation
|
it is fairly clear in most writings on this subject by evangelical conservatives (and even agnostic or atheist conservatives) that their anti-abortion position is predicated on the belief that an unborn child has the same human rights as the mother, and that the fetus' right to live outweighs the mother's right to choose to have an abortion. the disagreement between the sides isn't about women being second class citizens, it's about unborn children having (or not having) basic human rights. you are using the tired straw man argument put out by abortion supporters to try to ridicule what appears to be a genuine and modern ethical (moral?) position taken by abortion opponents. the core question remains, do unborn children have basic human rights or not?
Posted by splumer
those who are religious tend to blame the victim.
|
Source? without one this is just your opinion, and I disagree with it so you have gained no ground.
Posted by splumer
Christianity has been dragged kicking and screaming into a modern ethical framework by society at large.
|
postmodern ethical framework, actually. in fact, the framers of postmodern western ethics identify as christian in about half the cases (though fortunately we see a lot more diversity in this over the last several decades, which is for the better as i certainly don't want to live in a world where everyone identifies as the same religion or ethos). still. strike 3 you're out?
Freedom breeds war; and Peace, slavery. So it shall be forevermore: Men who love freedom buy it with their lives, and lovers of peace with their freedom. |
Add a poll to this thread
This thread is one of your Favourites. Click to make normal.Click to make this thread a Favourite.
| This thread is in a public category, and can't be made private. |
Powered by AvBoard AvBoard version 1.5 alpha
Page Generated In: 93 ms
|
|
Ethics
