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This originally happened in 2008, but I just now heard about it, as it's starting to resurface in the news.
http://www.google....72c5bf3e9e0349.1e1
Vince Weiguang Li, 43, after being diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, was found not guilty of murdering 22-year-old Tim McLean on a Canadian Greyhound bus on July 30, 2008.
He has been holed up since his trial at a Winnipeg, Manitoba area mental health centre, where he has received treatment and is now eligible for escorted day trips into the community.
In an interview with Chris Summerville, head of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, Li said he started hearing in 2004 what he believed was "the voice of God."
"The voice told me that I was the third story of the Bible, that I was like the second coming of Jesus (and that) I was to save people from a space alien attack," he said, according to a transcript published by Canadian media.
Li said he had purchased the knife used in the attack for protection "from the aliens" and claimed that he was unaware at that time that he suffered from schizophrenia.
"I was really scared. I remember cutting off his head. I believed he was an alien. The voices told me to kill him, that he would kill me or others. I do not believe this now," Li said.
Li had repeatedly stabbed McLean, who had been asleep on the seat next to him, cut off his head, removed his internal organs, pocketed his nose, tongue and an ear, and taunted police and bystanders with the severed head.
Police said in court documents Li "appeared to smell, and then eat parts of Tim McLean's flesh" and "lick blood from his hands" as they surrounded the bus on a desolate highway 90 kilometers (55 miles) west of Winnipeg, in western Canada, soon after the attack.
Authorities found body parts littered throughout the bus, some in white plastic bags. McLean's eyes and a third of his heart were also missing, and it is presumed Li ate them, said a pathologist in court files, though Li denied this.
The other 35 passengers and the driver were jolted by "blood-curdling screams" and fled, said witnesses, bracing the door after their escape to trap Li inside the bus. He was subdued by police after a three-hour standoff.
McLean, according to his family, was on his way home to Winnipeg from a job as a carnival worker in western Canada, when he was attacked.
Li, a devout Christian and a computer engineer, immigrated to Canada with his wife from China's province of Liaoning in 2001. |
For those of you who use this as an example of "killing in God's name", consider that this man genuinely believed that God was telling him to behead a space alien as a result of his condition. Hence why he was declared not guilty.
What say you?
Oh good, my slow clap processor made it into this thing.
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he can serve no useful purpose.
kill him.
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I'd put the guy in a mental hospital...no reason to kill him, but lock him the hell up. If he goes off his meds, bastard could behead some other poor son of a bitch.
"The best wine lies at the bottom of the pail/And Happiness lies below the navel." - Drukpa Kunley, "The Divine Madman of the Dragon Lineage" and "Saint of 5,000 Women". | |
Posted by Samurai
he can serve no useful purpose.
kill him.
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By beheading, I assume?
[last edit 5/25/2012 1:19 PM by Harvestman - edited 1 times]
Oh good, my slow clap processor made it into this thing.
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<rambling thoughts on the death penalty and shit like that>
When I have struggled with the idea of the death penalty, I have thought about when it might be appropriate. These days, I don't think it is ever appropriate.
This person didn't make choices that led to his killing someone. It truly wasn't his "fault."
But of course, there is a risk of him falling back into a mental state where he acts out, and in his case, the risk to others is potentially very high. Do we have the right to take away his freedom? Probably yes. At least in the form of some kind of managed and monitored living situation.
But then, when I think about the worst of the worst people... where there is no doubt that they did something that is abhorrent and completely in conflict with the concept of humans being able to live together, and that they apparently made the conscious choices to get them into their situation, and the conscious choice to perform whatever act they did... even in those cases, I know that they were in some ways victims of consequences over which they had no control, and most likely genetic predilections to violence or sociopathy. In those cases, no matter how "evil" the person, I have some sympathy for them. No one is born "evil," but some people are certainly born with traits that make them capable of becoming "evil." The circumstances of their early life, which is totally out of their control, will be the most significant factors in how it turns out.
Of course, there are people who are completely nonredeemable, and not able to be "rehabilitated" in any meaningful way. They have gone to the dark side. I don't think anyone starts out that way, but once you have made certain choices, and built mental constructs based on things that allow you to go even further toward "evil," there is no way back.
Like I said, I can feel empathy and/or pity for them, but there comes a point where there is no hope for a better outcome: Serial killers, Manson, child rapers, etc. There is no chance for improvement; no capability to reform. I have thought in the past that those were the people who deserved the death penalty.
But now I feel that even those people should be treated with a level of respect. Locked up until the end of time, but treated as humanely as possible and given basic comforts, as long as it doesn't cause undue hardship on others.
</ramblings>
mutantMandias may cause dizziness, sexual nightmares, and sleep crime. ++++ mutantMandias has to return some videotapes ++++ Do not taunt mutantMandias
mutantMandias is something more than human, more than a computer. mutantMandias is a murderously intelligent, sensually self-programmed, non-being | |
He's been out lately on weekend passes
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"Adventure is worthwhile in itself." -Amelia Earhart | |
I remember this story well, I was working on a Abnormal Psychology book at the time and it, of course, was huge news. It is, unfortunately, a very good example of an extreme case of mental illness. Illnesses can completely alter a person, what they believe, and feel/fear. I could never imagine having a mind that is like liveing in a real life conspiracy/horror story 24/7. In my opinion, the man deserves to be in a mental facility to be helped. Unfortunately a lot of medications for illnesses are very hard on peoples systems which can cause some to stop taking them. Although clearly insane and out of his mind when he comitted the act, it doesn't change the fact that he did it. Facility and then jail. If I drove drunk and killed someone, I would have still killed someone and would still be guilty.
Post by Brind
He's been out lately on weekend passes |
Wow, seriously??
Well said. +5
Everything is sweetened by risk.
-- Alexander Smith
http://www.flickr....hotos/11765127@N08 | |
Posted by HarvestmanMan
By beheading, I assume?
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why not let his victims' family cut off body parts of their choosing? No?
i don't what the fuck you'd do with a nutbag like this? Fuck, he's a whackaloon! What good to society can he be? Stick him in an institution where he can do what? masturbate 18 times a day to spongebob squarepants while talking to a chair he thinks is alive?
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Posted by Samurai
Stick him in an institution where he can do what? masturbate 18 times a day to spongebob squarepants while talking to a chair he thinks is alive?
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Maybe, but not everyone has the same aspirations as you, Sam. He might prefer My Little Pony.
mutantMandias may cause dizziness, sexual nightmares, and sleep crime. ++++ mutantMandias has to return some videotapes ++++ Do not taunt mutantMandias
mutantMandias is something more than human, more than a computer. mutantMandias is a murderously intelligent, sensually self-programmed, non-being | |
Posted by MutantMandias
Maybe, but not everyone has the same aspirations as you, Sam. He might prefer My Little Pony.
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i was always partial to animaniacs
\
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Posted by Samurai
i was always partial to animaniacs
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Hellooooo nurse!
Dude's obviously a psycho, but here's why I oppose the death penalty in all cases: From a Christian perspective, prisoners about to be executed are given access to clergy, who presumably will give absolution to the condemned so he can go to Heaven after death. Prisoner dies, goes to Heaven, he's forgiven by God, spends eternity in Paradise. From an atheist perspective, when you're dead, that's it. No more consciousness, no more guilt, no more being your cellmate's bitch. Either way, you get off easy. If you want to punish someone, let him live out the rest of his days behind bars.
In this dude's case, I think he wasn't fully aware of what he was doing, therefore I don't think it's really fair to execute him (my previous statement notwithstanding).
Interestingly, I recently sat through a psych lecture where the prof said that psychotics often become extremely religious. I'll refrain from commenting on that.
“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”
-Madeline Albright | |
I won't.
This is a great example of why there is no such thing as a private belief. This guy believed that god told him to kill aliens. Accept that premise and everything else he did is perfectly logical.
belief is a lever that once pulled affects everything you do.
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen | |
Posted by MutantMandias
<rambling thoughts on the death penalty and shit like that>
But now I feel that even those people should be treated with a level of respect. Locked up until the end of time, but treated as humanely as possible and given basic comforts, as long as it doesn't cause undue hardship on others.
</ramblings>
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"I do not understand objections to 'cruel and unusual punishment.' While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment--and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival...Punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose." Robert A Heinlen - Starship Troopers
Prison now, at least in Canada, claims to be centred around "rehabilitation". This is a problem since the recidivism rate is somewhere around 25 % depending on the year. Recidivism in Canada is defined as being returned to custody before the sentence has been served.
That means everyone is released early - on parole or "mandatory supervision". So a sentence for 25 years could be 20. 25% will return within 5 years.
No data is tracked beyond the original sentence.
Rehabilitation fail.
In this case the offender is not a criminal, he is mentally ill. The protection of the public should come first, but that is not what our system is designed for. He will be treated as a victim, coddled, under treated and finally released to be allowed to forget to take his meds.
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen | |
The idea of prison as "punishment" that works to accomplish anything is pretty ridiculous. I don't not commit crimes because I am adverse to going to prison. People who do commit crimes that get them sent to prison obviously were not dissuaded by the threat of such punishment either. There is a very tiny minority of people who are "improved" by prison. It just functions as a "time out." The best we can generally hope for is to not make people even worse from the experience.
mutantMandias may cause dizziness, sexual nightmares, and sleep crime. ++++ mutantMandias has to return some videotapes ++++ Do not taunt mutantMandias
mutantMandias is something more than human, more than a computer. mutantMandias is a murderously intelligent, sensually self-programmed, non-being | |
Just so you don't discuss the death penalty too much here, we don't have it here in Canada and haven't since the 1970's.
Post by Samurai
i was always partial to animaniacs\ |
Yesss Animaniacs! I love you, ok buh-bye!
Everything is sweetened by risk.
-- Alexander Smith
http://www.flickr....hotos/11765127@N08 | |
Ugh I remember when this happened... It was and still is appalling, although he was out of his mind I think this would have ended better for everyone if the police had just shot him. Killing someone is one thing, but eating their flesh and organs?
But my opinion may be biased because what he did is just so appalling and one of my best friends was related to Tim.
[last edit 5/28/2012 8:39 PM by .Kyle - edited 1 times]
Tralalalalalalala | |
Not sure what religion has to do with this. He was schizophrenic. So it was the "voice of God." It could easily have been the voice of Yertle the Turtle and it would have been the same effect.
“You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons.” | |
Posted by Esoterik
Not sure what religion has to do with this. He was schizophrenic. So it was the "voice of God." It could easily have been the voice of Yertle the Turtle and it would have been the same effect.
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And that's what it has to do with religion.
mutantMandias may cause dizziness, sexual nightmares, and sleep crime. ++++ mutantMandias has to return some videotapes ++++ Do not taunt mutantMandias
mutantMandias is something more than human, more than a computer. mutantMandias is a murderously intelligent, sensually self-programmed, non-being | |
I remember this story. Shocking, sad, so forth.
CTV talking head on the network evening news called the passengers on the bus 'heroes' for managing to escape, thus leaving poor Tim to a fate worse than death.
Sam, your answer to this is, frankly, shocking. Dude is (was) seriously mentally ill.
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS | |
I feel like a lot of the controversy stemming from this whole issue is that people don't see mental illnesses the same way they regard physical illnesses.
If this were some sort of neurological disease in which he had no control over his own body, everyone would sympathize with him. He has a severe mental illness, which isn't any less serious than multiple sclerosis or HIV or cancer. What he did was appalling, disgusting and shocking, but he was at the mercy of what his mind was telling him. It's sad that an innocent man died as a result of Li's terrible illness, but you can't blame a man who is unable to correctly perceive reality as you and I know it.
That being said, I don't think it's right to put him to death any more than you would euthanize someone with HIV. He requires medication, counseling and strict supervision. If the nursing staff and doctors are ensuring that he is taking his medication and is actively participating in other treatments, I think it's fair that he be able to have some shred of a normal life. He isn't a cold-blooded, manipulative serial killer who did it for fun. He feared for his life because his own mind told him so. The incident is probably as traumatic for him as it was for anybody else who witnessed the act.
[15:00:33] <SeeThirty> cause you're not likely to be anywhere that other people haven't been who didn't have protection
[15:00:41] <SeeThirty> still better safe than lexi |
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