http://foxnewsinsi...m-memorial-museum/



I have to ask, why bitch?

The lawsuit does seem absurd, a case of intolerance masquerading as tolerance: "you're tolerant insofar as you and i agree" or "we disagree, so you're intolerant".

This is an area where I really struggle to understand certain atheists (and I am not generalizing this to all). Mind you, atheists are by far a minority group with an unpopular ethos -- and in no country in all the world, are atheists even more than a third of the population (and in most countries are far less, maybe somewheres around 5-10% of adults globally). Why then, do certain ones among them insist that the rest of the world conform to atheist-approved forms of expression? Who exactly is being intolerant, here?

But in the end, this case will be tossed out. The 9/11 Memorial is a private foundation. They can do whatever the hell they want.

Posted by jeepdave http://foxnewsinsi...m-memorial-museum/ I have to ask, why bitch?

What about the atheists who died in the attacks? Personally, I could care less. I would love if 9/11 would no longer be mentioned in the news ever again.

Posted by dirt What about the atheists who died in the attacks? Personally, I could care less. I would love if 9/11 would no longer be mentioned in the news ever again.

If they were atheist, then it shouldn't matter to them right? We still remember Pearl Harbor. Trust me, 9/11 will be fresh for sometime to come.

Posted by jeepdave Trust me, 9/11 will be fresh for sometime to come.

Ugggg. So dumb.

Posted by dirt Ugggg. So dumb.

I know right?!? America is so fucking retarded for honoring and memorializing the largest tragedy to ever happen to us. Fuck them! Fuck all the victims! They are all probably stupid people who deserved it!

/sarcasm

Posted by dirt I would love if 9/11 would no longer be mentioned in the news ever again.

you need to qualify this. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you mean that you're tired of seeing people of all different ideological stripes wield 9/11 as a prop in their cause de jour... or that it's hypocritical to assign so much importance to it, when more people die in developing countries every day from preventable causes... or maybe you're just tired of hearing it period.

but no matter how you qualify it, frankly it seems ridiculous to say. it's undeniably an event that is far bigger than the sum of its parts, an urgently important event, and is a watershed moment in the timeline of the modern world -- for every nation. like it or not, America was the single largest fact throughout the 20th century and 9/11 shook the nation to its very core -- socially, economically, politically, and militarily. symbolically, it signifies the end of "The American Century", and doubtless historians will frequently cite it in this context. to say it'd be best to never mention it in the news again, I just don't understand that. please do explain further, i am curious what you mean by it.

Posted by dirt Ugggg. So dumb.

i don't see how it's dumb at all. i find it profoundly true. see my above post, i guess.

I dont think the atheists understand that the whole reason the attacks happened in the first place was because of muslim extremists hating the Christian culture that is western society. Its a war that has been going on for thousands of years. The "cross" or the Christian belief system, was the ultimate innocent target here. Not addressing EITHER religion would be totally ignoring what caused the attacks all together. Foolishly shoving such things under the rug will just lead to other attacks and people scratching their heads after.

Also, who cares. Atheists need to get a life and quit finding things to bitch about. It's a free country and we are free to display and worship, it's the whole reason America was founded. These people need to read up on history then go make one of their anti God billboards then get ruffled when Christians get on their case about it, yet dont ever go so far as to sue them.

If it's going to be some kind of national park, taking down the cross is the right move. It doesn't bother me but the precedent has been set for year and years that our national memorials don't specify a certain religion, not having the cross just follows that.

If it was a private museum, then I don't think they'd have sued. On what grounds could they have sued? Also, Fox isn't mentioning that the cross didn't materialize by chance; ironworkers at the site cut the girders to resemble a cross.

The problem I have, putting my atheism aside, is that it implies that there is a war going on between Christianity and Islam. Though some would say there is, or wished it wer so, there isn't. There can't be. You'd be blaming a billion people for the actions of a few, kind of like blaming Jews for the death of Jesus, or blaming all Catholics for child-raping priests.

I guess really, though, it depends on how it's displayed. If it's part of an exhibit of rubble, and labeled with a placard that says something like "Cross from girders by ironworkers working on recovery effort," then that would be OK. But to display it prominently, as the centerpiece of the museum, I think would send the wrong message.

But I think this quote sums up my feelings nicely:
“The World Trade Center cross has become a christian icon. It has been blessed by so-called holy men and presented as a reminder that their God, who couldn’t be bothered to stop the Muslim terrorists or prevent 3,000 people from being killed in his name, cared only enough to bestow upon us some rubble that resembles a cross.”

If 9/11 didn't cause you to question your faith, then nothing will.

I have to ask...

How come atheists are so damn evangelical?

Like me for instance... I believe in God. But that does not mean I thok YOU need to believe in him, I do and that's good enough for me. But a VAST majority of atheist people feel the need to prove that there is no god. In doing so they become hypocrites and should be ignored as such.

Posted by splumer But I think this quote sums up my feelings nicely: “The World Trade Center cross has become a christian icon. It has been blessed by so-called holy men and presented as a reminder that their God, who couldn’t be bothered to stop the Muslim terrorists or prevent 3,000 people from being killed in his name, cared only enough to bestow upon us some rubble that resembles a cross.”

I believe that misses the point entirely. Who is to say that He didnt try, but people who refuse to believe in Him were too stubborn to be bothered with His warnings.

Of course the cross is a Christian icon, just as "In God we trust" is a Christian icon on our money and society, this angers extremists.

But that statement is just more perfectly obvious proof that these attacks were derived from religious/spiritual beliefs and ideological conflicts. Removing any representation of that because it could be offensive is just plain stupid. Yes, putting a cross on there can cause some Christians to salivate or something of sort, but that comes with the territory. Who cares if you dont believe in it or not, it doesnt change the fact that it happened. Dont like the cross, dont look at it, just as I choose not to look at and lose sleep over atheist propaganda.

Posted by Aleksandar you need to qualify this. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you mean that you're tired of seeing people of all different ideological stripes wield 9/11 as a prop in their cause de jour... or that it's hypocritical to assign so much importance to it, when more people die in developing countries every day from preventable causes... or maybe you're just tired of hearing it period. but no matter how you qualify it, frankly it seems ridiculous to say. it's undeniably an event that is far bigger than the sum of its parts, an urgently important event, and is a watershed moment in the timeline of the modern world -- for every nation. like it or not, America was the single largest fact throughout the 20th century and 9/11 shook the nation to its very core -- socially, economically, politically, and militarily. symbolically, it signifies the end of "The American Century", and doubtless historians will frequently cite it in this context. to say it'd be best to never mention it in the news again, I just don't understand that. please do explain further, i am curious what you mean by it.

that you're tired of seeing people of all different ideological stripes wield 9/11 as a prop in their cause de jour...

This is a part of it. The other is that it is used to undermine personal freedom. Patriot act. TSA grope searches. As mentioned above, This idea that we are at was with Islam.

And yes, I am just tired of hearing about it. And the word terrorism.

Posted by splumer I guess really, though, it depends on how it's displayed. If it's part of an exhibit of rubble, and labeled with a placard that says something like "Cross from girders by ironworkers working on recovery effort," then that would be OK. But to display it prominently, as the centerpiece of the museum, I think would send the wrong message.

+1

Posted by maypost Like me for instance... I believe in God. But that does not mean I thok YOU need to believe in him, I do and that's good enough for me. But a VAST majority of atheist people feel the need to prove that there is no god. In doing so they become hypocrites and should be ignored as such.

But, your belief in God is foolish and wrong. It is sad to us. We are just trying to help.

Posted by Mr_Fiend Of course the cross is a Christian icon, just as "In God we trust" is a Christian icon on our money and society, this angers extremists.

No, that phrase has legally "lost through rote repetition any significant religious content".





Just like all belief in any god, focusing on this cross thing as anything other than an archaeological artifact of the situation simply demeans humanity and helps to stifle the individual responsibility that all humans should have for leaving together with respect and dignity.

Posted by Mr_Fiend I believe that misses the point entirely. Who is to say that He didn't try, but people who refuse to believe in Him were too stubborn to be bothered with His warnings. Of course the cross is a Christian icon, just as "In God we trust" is a Christian icon on our money and society, this angers extremists. But that statement is just more perfectly obvious proof that these attacks were derived from religious/spiritual beliefs and ideological conflicts. Removing any representation of that because it could be offensive is just plain stupid. Yes, putting a cross on there can cause some Christians to salivate or something of sort, but that comes with the territory. Who cares if you don't believe in it or not, it doesn't change the fact that it happened. Don't like the cross, don't look at it, just as I choose not to look at and lose sleep over atheist propaganda.

That is because you lot are a bunch of smug cunts.

If it was taught in school that god doesn't exist, and all believers are batshit insane, you wouldn't be so smug.

And yes, belief in god is taught in school. Not systematically, but socially. I don't believe in the christian god. I got the living shit kicked out of me for it. I would imagine a lot of atheists have had the same. So seeing shit like that would be like salt in a wound. Meanwhile, there are people like you saying we are at war with Islam. I know I'm not at war with Islam, as stupid as the majority of the religion is. But no more dumb than what you believe.

Some background: I'm not an atheist, but in fact highly spiritual. Your religion shits on me and those like me.

But like I said, I don't give a fuck about 9/11, the cross, or any other of these non issues faux news dredges up as news.

Posted by MutantMandias No, that phrase has legally "lost through rote repetition any significant religious content".

I often wonder where you get this stuff from. The "How to put down every religous response" reference book? Unnabridged?

Posted by MutantMandias Just like all belief in any god, focusing on this cross thing as anything other than an archaeological artifact of the situation simply demeans humanity and helps to stifle the individual responsibility that all humans should have for leaving together with respect and dignity.

Regardless of this statement being 100% true or not, it really doesnt matter. That is what I'm getting at. The whole situation of the attacks (on both the receiving and aggressive sides) was based on a such belief system, which according to you and others is not true. True or not, it was the role in the situation. Leaving it out is turning an eye to the truth of the matter.

Posted by dirt Meanwhile, there are people like you saying we are at war with Islam.

Um, maybe other people, a few, have said WE are at war with them. But I never said, nor do the majority of people say that we are at war with Islam, it's Islam is at war with Christian and Judaism beliefs. And to understand that, you have to research how all those came from the same source and split in the conflict between Isaac and Ishmael, before any of those belief systems ever existed.

Posted by dirt I'm not an atheist, but in fact highly spiritual. Your religion shits on me and those like me.

Awesome, and dont ever let religion taint you. I do not belong to a "religion" or a denomination. I have Christian beliefs, but my views on how and what God really is, is a bit different from the mainstream. Religion is a worldly thing, of taking a spiritual belief and adding pomp and circumstance and regulations to it.

Posted by Mr_Fiend I often wonder where you get this stuff from. The "How to put down every religous response" reference book? Unnabridged?

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." Thomas Jefferson

The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Regardless of this statement being 100% true or not, it really doesnt matter. That is what I'm getting at. The whole situation of the attacks (on both the receiving and aggressive sides) was based on a such belief system, which according to you and others is not true. True or not, it was the role in the situation. Leaving it out is turning an eye to the truth of the matter.

You should take a sound look at your logic. It has a few leaks.

The attacks were done by Al Qaeda, against one of the major financial centers of the world. You sir should know all about the discrepancy between what a leader says to incite violence, and the main motivating factors for said action. Was war in Iraq really about terrorism? No.

Posted by Mr_Fiend I often wonder where you get this stuff from. The "How to put down every religous response" reference book? Unnabridged?

Divine inspiration.

465 U.S. 668 - Lynch v. Donnelly
"such practices as the designation of "In God We Trust" as our national motto, or the references to God contained in the Pledge of Allegiance can best be understood, in Dean Rostow's apt phrase, as a form a ceremonial deism, protected from Establishment Clause scrutiny chiefly because they have lost through rote repetition any significant religious content."

Posted by Mr_Fiend Regardless of this statement being 100% true or not, it really doesnt matter. That is what I'm getting at. The whole situation of the attacks (on both the receiving and aggressive sides) was based on a such belief system, which according to you and others is not true. True or not, it was the role in the situation. Leaving it out is turning an eye to the truth of the matter.

That's what I said.