Not trying to stir the pot and get a shit storm a brewin, but what would it take personally to prove to you the existence of a higher being? Of there being a creator?


Just wondering would it have to be a scientific discovery, a personal experience, etc.

And my fellow believers, don't, please don't, come in here and bash their criteria of belief. We all had one. I didn't believe for a period of time, and now I do. I have my reason. I just want to know what it would take for the rest of the crew here.

Again, I'm asking the believers of this board to not bash on the others, let them express their ideas and thoughts. Everyone can comment, ask questions, but lets not belittle other if we can help it.

How about this... Before you believed, what was your criteria for what it would take to believe?

Posted by MutantMandias How about this... Before you believed, what was your criteria for what it would take to believe?

I needed to be moved, had to feel it. In my late teens, I did what I wanted, fuck the world. Then one situation that should have left me dead but only left me sore woke me up. I could feel love.

Posted by jeepdave I needed to be moved, had to feel it. In my late teens, I did what I wanted, fuck the world. Then one situation that should have left me dead but only left me sore woke me up. I could feel love.

But, what I'm asking is, before that happened, when you didn't believe, and presumably didn't expect to believe, do you think that you had in mind some criteria to meet which would make you believe?


It's like someone in the throws of new and exciting romance, when they expect to be happy together with their love forever, sitting down and thinking, "Hmm... now, how should I fuck this up?"

That's a perfectly reasonable question.

But, what I'm asking is, before that happened, when you didn't believe, and presumably didn't expect to believe, do you think that you had in mind some criteria to meet which would make you believe?

I can't speak for all (or any) believers, but I suspect most of them were taught at an early age and always felt God existed, but didn't really become a follower until later.

On to what would make me believe. It's hard to say, really, because there are a bunch of belief systems that, to me, have an equal chance of being true (except for things like Scientology or the Flying Spaghetti Monster). So maybe a better question to ask would be what would make me believe in a generic god, and not necessarily Yahweh.

First thing that comes to mind would be something akin to a miracle that scientists agreed didn't have a natural cause. I say scientists, because there are a lot of things I don't understand, and just because I don't understand them doesn't mean no one does. Some examples might be a perfectly spherical planet, or a planet (or asteroid or whatever) with a perfectly circular orbit. In other words, something occurring in nature that isn't explainable though standard laws of physics.

Also, perhaps something in the Bible that was unambiguously a reference to something that had yet to be discovered. I don't mean oblique references that are open to interpretation, like the current fashion among Biblical apologists to say that Leviathan was a reference to dinosaurs. Maybe something like "Lo, there are planets that lieth beyond those thou canst see with thine naked eye. Thine sun is a star." Stuff like that.

Personal experiences? None. I don't trust myself enough to believe my own perceptions. Example: I was on my way home late one night when I saw a woman in a long, white dress run out in the street in front of me. This was about 2 a.m. It seemed so real that I slammed on the brakes. She wasn't real, unless she had awesome ninja skills and was hiding in a tree or something. If I was a little more accepting of my own senses, I'd believe I saw a ghost. And looking back, I can fill in more and more details of her dress and appearance. But that's just based on my expectations, experience and desires (not saying I want to hit women in long white dresses. At least not with my car.). It's obvious I was hallucinating. I could go on about this, but I won't. I'll just say that personal experiences are so biased by our experiences and expectations that we can't really trust them.

Posted by splumer That's a perfectly reasonable question. Some examples might be a perfectly spherical planet, or a planet (or asteroid or whatever) with a perfectly circular orbit. In other words, something occurring in nature that isn't explainable though standard laws of physics.

I know its pointless to get into specifics, but those things would be perfectly explainable by our current understanding of physics; they are just unlikely instances of the general rules. But with enough instances, it is almost certain that such things exist.

Posted by splumer Also, perhaps something in the Bible that was unambiguously a reference to something that had yet to be discovered. I don't mean oblique references that are open to interpretation, like the current fashion among Biblical apologists to say that Leviathan was a reference to dinosaurs. Maybe something like "Lo, there are planets that lieth beyond those thou canst see with thine naked eye. Thine sun is a star." Stuff like that.

Also not viable for so many reasons. The language of the Bible as you read it comes purely from human minds. Not only were the original sources written by men, but there has been editing, compiling and translation, with clear and distinct changes of meaning and intention over time. The Bible that exists today has such a weak connection to any of the original texts that it is meaningless, and I of course assert that the original texts were simply a combination of fantasy and philosophy in any case. Again, it is expected that, given enough time and events, you could almost certainly find an event which would seem to be mentioned specifically in the Bible, as you could with just about any text, especially ones that are addressing the human condition.

Posted by MutantMandias Also not viable for so many reasons. The language of the Bible as you read it comes purely from human minds. Not only were the original sources written by men, but there has been editing, compiling and translation, with clear and distinct changes of meaning and intention over time.

Well, you and I know that, but there are a lot of people who talk about Bible prophecy and how things like dinosaurs were mentioned in the Bible. So, rather than going by an interpretation, if there was something in the Bible that was unambiguously a later discovery, that would point me in the direction of belief. There is no such reference.

But speaking in more general terms, the question "Is there a god" is an empirical one: either a god exists, or does not. Therefore, to answer that question, you have to have empirical evidence. Saying "God is love" or even "God is the sum total of all the physical laws of the universe," which is what Einstein said, reduces God to an meaningless abstraction that isn't worth getting up early on Sunday for. Only gods that conscious entities are worthy of worship. But we're getting off topic.

Posted by splumer either a god exists, or does not.

Yeah, I'm actually not willing to say that. Obviously definition of the word changes everything about it... so much so that I think it isn't even meaningful to put in those terms.

Posted by splumer "God is the sum total of all the physical laws of the universe," which is what Einstein said, reduces God to an meaningless abstraction that isn't worth getting up early on Sunday for.

Actually, I think that particular "meaningless abstraction" is worth getting up early for every day. That's some awesome and sublime shit right there.

Posted by jeepdave Not trying to stir the pot and get a shit storm a brewin, but what would it take personally to prove to you the existence of a higher being? Of there being a creator?

what would it take for you to believe that there wasn't one?

i don't think you could ever prove to me there was a god.

for me my proof that there is a god, is the world. for me its just too amazing and precise to be some sort of cosmic coincidence. nothing in the bible proves it to me. Thats just my two cents.

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby for me my proof that there is a god, is the world. for me its just too amazing and precise to be some sort of cosmic coincidence. nothing in the bible proves it to me. Thats just my two cents.

That's actually kind of how I see it as well.

And to me, the idea that it had to have been created is an outrageous insult to the majesty of it all.

Posted by MutantMandias And to me, the idea that it had to have been created is an outrageous insult to the majesty of it all.

This.

I find it even more amazing and awe-inspiring that the universe came to be without a creator or designer.

what would it take for you to believe that there wasn't one?

Since you can't logically prove a negative, I don't think there's anything that would dissuade believers.

for me my proof that there is a god, is the world. for me its just too amazing and precise to be some sort of cosmic coincidence.

What's odd is that the more you study the natural world, the more you see things that make you wonder why, if the world, etc. was created, it was created that way. Like the appendix, or a bunch of other things that make no sense in a creation context but make a lot of sense in an evolutionary one.

Lots of acid.

My question for atheists on the board is, were you ever once a believer?

My bet is none would ever admit it.

Posted by Esoterik My question for atheists on the board is, were you ever once a believer? My bet is none would ever admit it.

That's not a good bet. Religion is a bad habit, like smoking. Most people who quit it are very vocal about having quit.

As for myself, I tried. Gave it a fair shake. I grew up with ample, supportive, and not really oppressive, religious opportunities around me. I knew kind and friendly ministers as a child.

Interesting note: My parents actually taught a sex education class in a church, but I didn't know that until after I had begun to teach a sex education class in a church myself.

Posted by jeepdave Not trying to stir the pot and get a shit storm a brewin, but what would it take personally to prove to you the existence of a higher being? Of there being a creator?

Honestly? An Old Testament-style big time, documented, on camera miracle. And , as Lelia put it, not one of those bogus every day miracles like a sunrise. I'm talking Red Sea parting grade stuff.

I hear the Rapture is scheduled for next month. That might do it.

Don't ya mean Leela?

Posted by Esoterik My question for atheists on the board is, were you ever once a believer? My bet is none would ever admit it.

I tried. I couldn't find a particular set of beliefs that resonated with me. Like many people, I tried to use it to fill a vast hole in my life. Still, it was empty. I had to fill that hole myself and I did. For a while I felt as though spiritually, I was floating aimlessly. I still do, but I no longer feel as though I need a specific direction. I'm not looking for anything. I'm just kinda taking it all in. My "religion" is to live. To recognize beauty and harmony in everything. To be open and flow. Instead of looking for "god" without, I look within. The power of will, whether purely individual or granted by some other entity in the sky, is truly incredible.

Posted by Esoterik My question for atheists on the board is, were you ever once a believer? My bet is none would ever admit it.

No.
I used to heckle nuns.
i have never subscribed to the invisible friend.

...even though my mom tried to have me brainwashed.