Is there room for compassion between religious and non-religious traditions? Is there room for change and adaptability in the religious and scientific community? Is it possible to hold true to science or religious doctrine and still allow for a changing belief?

In other words: is there room for compassion?

It is one of my deepest wishes that religions and science find a way to adapt and change and enter the modern dialogue together. I feel such change, adaptation and respect is possible from both science and religion. What I worry about is the possibility that I am wrong.

What do you think? Is compassion between people of different deeply held belief systems possible? Can mankind find common ground or are our beliefs truly mutually exclusive?

For science to compromise with religion in terms of beliefs, would be to give up science itself. I don't see how compassion, a sense of shared suffering, relates to the fight between science and religion, as for the majority of people, the fight isn't causing any actual suffering, just minor disputes etc. The real cause of suffering between the religion, is from other religions, not from science.

Posted by Emolite The real cause of suffering between the religion, is from other religions, not from science.

Indeed.

The real cause of suffering is religion itself. Look at evangelical christians blocking the HPV vaccine on "moral" grounds or the Bushites fighting against stem cell research, the Catholic Church preaching instead of teaching in Africa while hundreds of thousands die of aids and the Scopes monkey trial and the whole embarrassing Intelligent Design/Wedge Strategy dogma.

"The success of science often comes at the expense of religious dogma; the maintenance of religious dogma always comes at the expense of science. It is time we conceded a basic fact of human discourse: either a person has good reasons for what he believes, or he does not. When a person has good reasons, his beliefs contribute to our growing understanding of the world."

Sam Harris

Posted by tekriter the Scopes monkey trial

You might want to read up on the Scopes trial, because it doesn't actually support your argument at all. It was a publicity stunt cooked up by some local officials.

Posted by tekriter The real cause of suffering is religion itself. Look at evangelical christians blocking the HPV vaccine on "moral" grounds or the Bushites fighting against stem cell research, the Catholic Church preaching instead of teaching in Africa while hundreds of thousands die of aids and the Scopes monkey trial and the whole embarrassing Intelligent Design/Wedge Strategy dogma.

By the way, it's funny how you say "religion itself" as if you're talking about religion in general, but then every example you list is from some flavor of Christianity. It's funny because in the pecking order of "religions doing bad things today," Christianity is most definitely a distant second to Islam.

Dude, you just have a hard-on against Christianity. It's transparent. And that's fine--I have my own special set of issues with it as well. But when you constantly use it as your example of how much suffering religion is causing (when there's clearly a MUCH bigger example of that outside Christianity), it just makes you look biased and jaded.

Pot, this is kettle. You appear to be all black, over.

I hear ya rabbit, but you have to admit, in this environment, and the environment that 98% of us on this board deal with every day, there is a prevailing attitude that Christianity is Right. There is just such an ignorant, stubborn, bone headedness to so many people about Christianity that they can't even consider that someone might have another belief and still be a pretty good person.

It's not hard to argue that there is some bad shit going down in Muslimtown. You see that argument everywhere you go. And, unfortunately, for lots of people, every time they hear that Muslim = Bad, it reinforces their existing idea that Christianity = Good. And these people need to be smacked in the face with a fish, because one doesn't follow the other.

And speaking of compassion, don't you love how Politicians and media in the US will attend a religious ceremony which has Christian, Jewish, and Muslim attendance and call it "All Inclusive."



And remember, at least Muslims don't eat the flesh of their zombie god.

Posted by MutantMandias I hear ya rabbit, but you have to admit, in this environment, and the environment that 98% of us on this board deal with every day, there is a prevailing attitude that Christianity is Right. There is just such an ignorant, stubborn, bone headedness to so many people about Christianity that they can't even consider that someone might have another belief and still be a pretty good person.

Oh yeah, there's no question. Christianity is hypocritical, oppressive, and many times bigoted.

However, I pretty much don't worry day-to-day that the Christians are going to kill my ass for not being one. But if I lived in say, southern Thailand, I'd be happily pretending to be a Muslim just to keep my head from getting cut off.

So, talking about how much suffering religion causes and then pointing to half a dozen examples from Christianity alone, well... that seems more than a little agenda-driven to me. Christianity sucks balls, but it's definitely not the shining example of religious suffering in the world right now.

Posted by tekriter Pot, this is kettle. You appear to be all black, over.

If you mean I have a hard-on against Islam, guilty as charged! I've said about a bazillion times in this forum that there's something seriously wrong with modern Islam and I stand by that--because the evidence backs me up. Islam, around the world, is responsible for the overwhelming majority of religious violence.

But, I also think newly-converted Wiccans are among the stupidest people on the planet. But I wouldn't use them as my primary example for why religion is bad.

Posted by White Rabbit However, I pretty much don't worry day-to-day that the Christians are going to kill my ass for not being one. But if I lived in say, southern Thailand, I'd be happily pretending to be a Muslim just to keep my head from getting cut off.

I feel ya bro. I feel ya.

Bad shit is going down, and has been for centuries.

I guess my point is that I don't feel that I personally will have much affect in changing that area of existence. But I do like to live my life in such a way, and believe that I might have an influence on opening the mind of some Christian nut that I come across. If something I do has an effect, either directly or indirectly, on challenging someone's beliefs, then I feel like I have done my job as a spiritual being, in the same way I feel that the limits of Freedom of Expression should be pushed to the point of offensiveness. The end result is either a tested and stronger belief, or an abandonment of things that don't work and moving closer toward truth.

My life has little affect on Muslims, but I live smack dab in the middle of a fuckton of self righteous Christians.

Posted by MutantMandias ...But I do like to live my life in such a way, and believe that I might have an influence on opening the mind of some Christian nut that I come across. If something I do has an effect, either directly or indirectly, on challenging someone's beliefs, then I feel like I have done my job as a spiritual being...

Archbishop Collins of Toronto recalled in his recent homily, that the present world draws its meaning from a greater World. The image of the New Jerusalem, the City of God, gives us insight into that greater world, he said.

However, he noted, “As we disciples of Jesus confront this world of violence and of all too frequent disregard for the dignity of the human person, the New Jerusalem is not, however, simply a future goal.”

“To the degree that we love God and love neighbor, and act with integrity as disciples of Jesus, to that degree the New Jerusalem is already present, as it will be in its fullness at the end of time. Heaven begins on earth, in our daily lives, when we live in generous love, in the image of the Blessed Trinity, in the imitation of Christ.”

The archbishop challenged his people to choose the path of heaven by acting in a social just manner, participating in the life of the Church, participating in civil life, and entering worthily into the Divine Liturgy.

I am a Catholic Christian and this is an example of the type of faith I live. If that makes me a "Christian nut" in your eyes then so be it but don't try to challenge my beliefs unless you have something far better on the table.

I didn't call you a Christian nut. I said there are Christian nuts. Can you deny that?

Your Archbishop seems like a classy dude.

Posted by White Rabbit If you mean I have a hard-on against Islam, guilty as charged! I've said about a bazillion times in this forum that there's something seriously wrong with modern Islam and I stand by that--because the evidence backs me up. Islam, around the world, is responsible for the overwhelming majority of religious violence. But, I also think newly-converted Wiccans are among the stupidest people on the planet. But I wouldn't use them as my primary example for why religion is bad.

If you want to know what I think, I'll tell you:

I am skeptical of ALL BS.

That means I disagree with all organized religions. The most proximal threat right now is Christianity (I have lived in Islamic countries, and there the most proximal threat was Islam.) There are very few Islamic apologists with whom to engage in dialogue with on this board - but there are a lot of christian apologists - yourself included despite your loudmouthed insistence otherwise. I would happily dispute the claims that islam does any good in this world just as much as I do christianity. Had you read what I have written you might save your keyboard a little trauma.

Go ahead, search my posts and read what I have said about Islam. When you have eaten your fill of your own words, come back and read your own verbal diarrhea.

You seem to have a lot to say about a lot of individuals and groups, and a lot of name-calling, but don't seem to have much reasoning or justification, or any of the evidence of which you often refer to for your ideas.

You are so concerned with an imaginary or hopelessly misunderstood bias you have attributed to me that you have failed time and again to realize (as you defend christianity versus islam) that I have disagreed with very little you have said about islam.

Your ideas about religion and it's place in our world are unfounded. Such baseless ideas are the souce of most of the suffering on this planet. You can't even discuss religion without resorting to swearing and name calling - imagine the effects of incompatible ideas at governmental policy levels in the unarguably evangelical white house, or across a table in Darfur.

Far from a well reasoned position, your criticisms betray your evangelical cristian upbringing and reek of bigoted american rage. Perhaps if you spent less time name calling and defending christianity to the web you could take the time to learn the real dangers that ideas (that christianity and islam as well as a whole host of other dogmatic baseless ideologies share) pose to all of us.

Your defence of christianity, despite your special pleading to the contrary belies an encyclopedic ignorance of history and a lack of critical thinking skills that would seem appropriate for someone in highschool with little or no experience of the world.

We are all biased and jaded. You have exposed yourself as such with your pro-christian bias and your dim view of people.

I am indeed biased against christianity (as much as any other religion), but I have outlined my reasons for this clearly. I believe humanity would be better served by the truth and quest for further knowledge and I fully believe that (despite what I hope is an historical aberration in the United States) that people will continue the historical trend of enlightenment and reason.

The earth was flat and now it is not. I answer you only because of my hope you will learn just a little and stop suggesting that a christian flat earth is better than a muslim flat earth.

Posted by Trixi I am a Catholic Christian and this is an example of the type of faith I live. If that makes me a "Christian nut" in your eyes then so be it but don't try to challenge my beliefs unless you have something far better on the table.

Okay......

Your beliefs are based in an iron aged view of the world - a world that has since moved on and rejected most of what the bible claims as evidence.

Your ideas about the origin of the universe are baseless and untestable, just as your belief that you will survive your own death are pathetic and egotistical. The basis of your belief (the bible) s hopelessly paternalistic, violent and rife with contradictions.

The history of your religion reads like a sado-masocist manual and is responsible for millions of deaths and the repression of science for centuries. Your religion also sets you apart from all the other peoples of the earth with different labels, the divisiveness of which spans the spectrum from arrogance to mass murder.

You imply that you only subscribe to that particular set of beliefs because no one has come along with a more attractive set? have you never questioned those beliefs?

And further to that, why can't someone challenge your beliefs? Can you not answer those challenges confidently? Do you not have some evidence that your beliefs are right (and all the other religions are wrong)?

Do you not want freedom of religion? Your freedom means that we all have the freedom to believe what we want to - but also to challenge ridiculous ideas (like praying over crackers turns them into flesh) even when you resort to special pleading by calling it a religion.

So here is something better on your table:

How about science, reason and secular humanism. You don't have to memorize any dogma, you can include everyone on the planet, you can question ideas and adapt to new ideas as new knowledge surfaces. No society has ever fallen because the people asked for more evidence.

Of course, if you don't want your beliefs challenged - why are you posting them on a religious discussion?

It is disheartening to see an argument and attack thread spawn out of the title "compassion."

I live in the "Protestant Capitol" of the world and am surrounded by devout and fundamentalist Christians. However my day to day life though impacted, is not infringed upon too much. Christianity and all the major religions around the world have sections of their texts which deal with peace, understanding and compassion. It is a central tenant of their beliefs.

I see many who foster hatred at the tune of religion, but I also see many who are inspired towards peace from the same text. It was mentioned earlier that missionaries are in foreign countries converting people. True they are. They are also however providing necessary services like food, medicine and care.

Personally I am an atheist but my over all goal is not truely to see everyone denounce their beliefs. I am more hopeful that somehow we will manage to have our varied beliefs and still be kind and understanding towards one another.

My friend group includes many different and varied beliefs. We still sit down for tea or games together and have some of the best nights I can remember.

Humanity despite our varied religions, beliefs and lack of beliefs still has so much in common. Is there no room for the differences to be overlooked and the commonality to be celebrated?

Science though critical of many beliefs in religion has still left many religious ideas untouched. Also why can't religion learn from science and why can't science learn from religion? Scientists have created weaponry that can inflict death all around. Why shouldn't scientists think about ethics and morality instead of having a blind lust towards creation? Why can't a religious person change their beliefs in the face of scientific evidence?

The Dali Lama is a great example of a religious man who can adapt to changing times, maintain his spirituality and spread peace. Many other Buddhists actually persecute him by killing his teachers, bashing his association with the West or calling for immediate violence against China. He however believes that violence is a sickness of the self and that if science can provide convincing evidence that contradicts his beliefs he will adapt and change his beliefs.

Other religions have adapted and changed also. Almost all religious people have become more peaceful and tolerant towards others. We still see the Pat Robertsons and Osamas on the warpath. But we also have massive populations of non-violent, non-persecuting and anti-war devoutly religious figures.

So back to the question, is compassion between varied beliefs possible? Can science flourish ethically and religion accept fact sometimes at the detriment of faith? Can religion flourish and science take the morality and ethics that have been passed down by some religious doctrine into account? Is there as much conflict between religions and science and religion as many of us have been led to believe?

Ethics are independent of religion, so yes, most certainly science can flourish ethically. Ethics and science both change over time.

Posted by tekriter but there are a lot of christian apologists - yourself included despite your loudmouthed insistence otherwise.

I'm not an apologist. What happens is, you make these completely over-the-top bullshit statements about Christianity, I tell you that you're rightly full of shit and that maybe you should give reasonable criticism, and THEN you call me a Christian apologist.

Go ahead, search my posts and read what I have said about Islam. When you have eaten your fill of your own words, come back and read your own verbal diarrhea.

Hey, I remember you bashing Islam, too. Good on you.

It still doesn't change that you go way overboard when bash on Christianity.

You seem to have a lot to say about a lot of individuals and groups, and a lot of name-calling, but don't seem to have much reasoning or justification, or any of the evidence of which you often refer to for your ideas.

Other than, you know, I spent the first 20 years or so of my life in evangelical churches and know them as well as anyone possibly could. Yeah, other than that.

You are so concerned with an imaginary or hopelessly misunderstood bias you have attributed to me that you have failed time and again to realize (as you defend christianity versus islam) that I have disagreed with very little you have said about islam.

No, your bias (and everyone else who is that way) is a problem, whether you think it's imaginary or not. Because people like you who constantly try to show that Christianity and Islam and all other religions are all the same are the ones who are going to put us a risk. Because you help water down the very real threat that Islamic violence poses to the world.

You can't even discuss religion without resorting to swearing and name calling - imagine the effects of incompatible ideas at governmental policy levels in the unarguably evangelical white house, or across a table in Darfur.

Boo-hoo--I swear in every fucking post I make here, whether it be a political debate or banter. You ain't special.

Far from a well reasoned position, your criticisms betray your evangelical cristian upbringing and reek of bigoted american rage.

Oh brother. Yeah, I'm a bigot because I think the guys that execute homosexuals are worse than the guys that just don't want them to get married?

Get a fucking clue, man. The only thing my "evangelical upbringing" did was show me that Christians aren't the boogeymen they're made out to be--that people like YOU make them out to be.

Perhaps if you spent less time name calling and defending christianity to the web you could take the time to learn the real dangers that ideas (that christianity and islam as well as a whole host of other dogmatic baseless ideologies share) pose to all of us.

Oh for fuck's sake. See this? This is the source of my entire argument with you. Because you are STILL trying to say that one is just as bad as the other.

Well, guess what? One "idea" is not as bad as another. Their "idea" is killing a whole helluva lot more people than the "idea" over here. I'm sorry the mathematics of that escapes you.

Your defence of christianity, despite your special pleading to the contrary belies an encyclopedic ignorance of history and a lack of critical thinking skills that would seem appropriate for someone in highschool with little or no experience of the world.

Ooo, look. Someone trotted out a staple from Flame-War 101: Accuse your enemy of lack of education or high school mentality. Good one, dude. That'll make everyone take you seriously.

And you're right. I do defend Christianity. But only because the things you say about it half the time are ridiculous and over-the-top.

You have exposed yourself as such with your pro-christian bias and your dim view of people.

Yeah... I'm Pro-Christianity because I don't hate Christians and I call bullshit whenever you say ridiculous things about them. Gotcha!

You might want to tell that to them, though, because they pretty much consider me a crazy liberal heathen like you.

I am indeed biased against christianity (as much as any other religion), but I have outlined my reasons for this clearly. I believe humanity would be better served by the truth and quest for further knowledge and I fully believe that (despite what I hope is an historical aberration in the United States) that people will continue the historical trend of enlightenment and reason.

Funny how Christianity is always target #1 for you, though, huh?

You know what, if I weren't in here constantly busting your balls, I can't even imagine what kind of shit you'd say about Christianity. You're already so over-the-top it's ridiculous. You'd probably go hog wild with the vitriol.

The earth was flat and now it is not. I answer you only because of my hope you will learn just a little and stop suggesting that a christian flat earth is better than a muslim flat earth.

And here's what YOU need to learn that you still haven't:

A Christian "flat earth" actually is better than a Muslim "flat earth." Because on a Christian flat earth, a whole lot less people get oppressed and murdered and killed in the name of a god.

You don't get it, dude, and you never will. I'm all about criticizing something. But when you go overboard and spew garbage about something and go way beyond the criticism it actually deserves, NO ONE is going to listen. NO ONE is going to change anything. Comparing Christians to Nazis, or the Taliban, or what-the-fuck ever just makes people stop listening to you. They write you off because half the stuff you're saying just isn't right.

Go for it, criticize Christianity. But give it what it deserves. Which, if you'd notice, I've never defended Christians on anything you said about Christians opposing stem cell research or HPV vaccine or opposing evolution in schools--because YOU'RE RIGHT. Christians are completely wrong on those issues, and they're hurting the world.

What I object to is your portrayal of them as being just like Islam extremists (or whatever extremely bad thing you're comparing them to at that moment). You just try to present them as the worst possible thing and at all times, and it's just silly. Whatever legitimate points you make get lost in that.

Posted by Cabiria We still see the Pat Robertsons and Osamas on the warpath.

See, man. This is exactly what I'm talking about. This is the kind of thing that's sent me on a tirade.

Pat Robertson is a fucking jackass. He's among the worst of the worst of Christian leaders (excluding people like Fred Phelps).

But he's a knight in shining armor compared to Osama bin Laden.

You make comparisons like that, and I promise you, Christians tune you out immediately. They won't hear another damn word. But you tell them what Christianity is actually doing wrong in a reasonable manner, and you just might get through to them. Probably not, but you're much more likely.

I don't believe we'll ever get rid of Christianity or religion, and I'm not sure it's even a good idea for the world to do so. But I guarantee, if you make a comparison like Pat Robertson to Osama bin Laden, or comparing Christians to Nazis, you'll never get Christianity to be more reasonable. Because the Christians are smart enough to go, "Uh, you know, none of us want to round up homosexuals and gas them to death--so this guy just must hate Christianity," and that's the end of that discussion. No more getting through to them.

Not to mention, comparing one relatively peaceful religion to a pretty fucking violent religion just makes it harder for people to deal with the problem of that violent religion.

And you guys can say what you want. I've already said I think Buddhism is stupid. But I can absolutely guarantee you if Buddhists got compared to the Taliban, I'd be just as quick to call bullshit.

Psst. I said this in a PM to tekriter, but I thought I might ought to say it here publicly, too.

Didn't mean to get personal, brother. I don't think you're a bad guy. I think you're a little too hard on Christianity, but that's all I really think. So, whatever personal shit I said, I apologize. Because I wrote those last two posts REALLY fast, and I usually tend to put my foot in my mouth when I do that.

Sorry, dude. Didn't mean to take it in the mud whereever I did.

Sigh . . .

I didn't say that Pat Robertson and Osama are equivalent. I was trying to get across that they are both intolerant of other points of view.

Please I am trying to keep this from turning into another battle between beliefs. I was hoping to get some opinions on how the religious and non-religious can move forward in the future without a need for violence.

Please go to the other threads to battle it out. CAN WE GET ALONG? That is my only question. Can we make room for each other on this planet? Can we resolve our conflicts without criticizing and shooting each other? This thread has been eye opening for me. I am almost convinced we can't. I can't mention religion without hearing an exchange of explitives.

In response to someone else's post: yes religion and ethics are two separate things. However religion has attempted to offer an ethical framework to society. Whether it is a good one or not is a matter of opinion. But next time we are building a nuclear missile maybe "love thy neighbor" would be a good thing to think about.