Posted by katwoman Quote anything you want, but I wouldn't believe that I came from a monkey if I were the last person on earth to feel that way. I believe that God created monkeys, and he created humans, and my life experience affirms this.

Well, to be honest, your life experience also affirms that the Earth is flat, and that the sun revolves around the Earth, and that a relatively random selection of a large number of writings which were chosen and compiled into a book by power hungry, corrupt, theo-politicians, is the holy word of god.

Posted by MutantMandias Well, to be honest, your life experience also affirms that the Earth is flat, and that the sun revolves around the Earth, and that a relatively random selection of a large number of writings which were chosen and compiled into a book by power hungry, corrupt, theo-politicians, is the holy word of god.

great point

Posted by katwoman monkey

Sigh. Apes. We came from apes. Monkeys have tails. The great apes; humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans, do not.

Pet peeve when people refer to apes as monkeys.

Posted by ~pandora~ i wouldn't call billions of years 'just like that'...

Well...just what do you mean by 'civilization?'

Cuz...you know...I'm looking at a timeline of less than 20000 years.

Posted by KublaKhan Cathedrals and steamships and rockets and patent leather shoes...just like that? That's a pretty giant leap from creating some single-celled amoeba. An entire civilization...?

okay, well I wasnt too far off..you said an entire civilization from an amoeba...the first 'life on earth' was around 3.5 billion years ago, and the first eukaryotic cells came about 1.5 billion years ago (animals: 560 million). So its been a long time coming

Posted by ~pandora~ okay, well I wasnt too far off..you said an entire civilization from an amoeba...the first 'life on earth' was around 3.5 billion years ago, and the first eukaryotic cells came about 1.5 billion years ago (animals: 560 million). So its been a long time coming

Yeah but swamp mush to cultivating wheat is a long long time.

My 'civilization timeline' starts when we dropped from the trees and invented agriculture.

Posted by KublaKhan when we dropped from the trees and invented agriculture.

There was still a long long time between those two things.

Posted by MutantMandias Well, to be honest, your life experience also affirms that the Earth is flat, and that the sun revolves around the Earth, and that a relatively random selection of a large number of writings which were chosen and compiled into a book by power hungry, corrupt, theo-politicians, is the holy word of god.

Cynic...

Posted by MutantMandias Well, to be honest, your life experience also affirms that...

Really? Until now, I had no idea what experiences of mine had occurred and how they have all affected me. Gosh, thanks for clearing that one up!

Posted by katwoman Really? Until now, I had no idea what experiences of mine had occurred and how they have all affected me. Gosh, thanks for clearing that one up!

Whew... Just a sec, I have to wipe off some of this sarcasm that you just splashed all over the place...

Okay, well, forgive me. I apologize for not taking into account that you are a time travelling astronaut.

Wait, maybe I didn't get all of that sarcasm off after all.....

Posted by MutantMandias Wait, maybe I didn't get all of that sarcasm off after all.....

Not to worry, this is pretty much what most conversations on this board degenerate to.

I fail to see how evolution by natural selection precludes the idea of intelligent design.

Those who believe in God tend to believe that God is in control of the natural forces of the universe. Therefore God could control what, or who, nature selects to survive. And there would be no way to prove or disprove that God is doing it because of the use of natural forces in the process.

Perhaps that goes in the face of the Genesis creation narrative, but it is still true to the *spirit* of that narrative.

Posted by Watcher I fail to see how evolution by natural selection precludes the idea of intelligent design.

I agree. By my definitions of what most people consider God, it fits perfectly.

The problem is that Intelligent Design is a not an honest endeavour. It is solely a politically motivated attack on non-fundamentalist Christian values and ideas.

Posted by MutantMandias I agree. By my definitions of what most people consider God, it fits perfectly. The problem is that Intelligent Design is a not an honest endeavour. It is solely a politically motivated attack on non-fundamentalist Christian values and ideas.

Um...what?

Posted by MutantMandias It is solely a politically motivated attack on non-fundamentalist Christian values and ideas.

What is the basis for your statement?

Posted by KublaKhan Um...what?

Posted by Trixi What is the basis for your statement?

What, are you kidding?

It is not a scientific theory. It does nothing to enhance any understanding, and only looks for support for predetermined beliefs.

One of the most glaring things is exactly what Watcher and I said. There is nothing about Evolution that precludes someone from saying, "I believe that the one holy God, the father of our Savior, Jesus Christ, in His infinite wisdom, created the process of Evolution, with the beauty and eloquence deserving of His Majesty. And we affirm and testify that His power and love for His creation is exemplified through the holy inspirations that he gave unto Darwin."

I mean, come on! The only reason for the political push of ID into classrooms and public debate is to try to force acceptance and some kind of pseudo-legitimacy for ideas that many people reject outright, and that have no place masquerading as science.

I really find it difficult to believe that you think ID is just a good faith effort by some hard working, right-minded folks.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Really, I doubt Darwin considered himself divinely inspired. He was just reporting what he observed, and the conclusions it led him to. I don't really think he meant to challenge anyone's theology, poor guy. Oh, I'm sure he knew what the implications of his theory were, but I don't think he set out to be the Devil. Or a prophet for that matter. He was just a scientist, doing what scientists do.

Now, it is possible that God spoke to Darwin. In as much as observing and investigating nature is listening to God, I would have to say that God did. But I don't know as Darwin considered himself anything special or knew the firestorm his observations would set off.

A lot of us, like me, really don't know what to do with Darwin.

Posted by Watcher Really, I doubt Darwin considered himself divinely inspired..... Now, it is possible that God spoke to Darwin.... But I don't know as Darwin considered himself anything special....

And what about the gospels? Mark was just retelling 40 year old stories that he had heard from Peter. Luke was basically a historian compiling various accounts and records about things that had happened almost a century earlier. Matthew and John supposedly were Apostles, so they wrote what they observed.

Sounds a lot like Darwin. They didn't think they were special. They observed and investigated and researched, and wanted to record their findings for others. And yet these books were selected as the divine word of God. That would certainly come as a surprise to the authors.

Darwin was an Anglican, and studied theology at Cambridge. Fundamentalist Christians hate him and Evolution because he lost his faith over time and didn't include God in his final theory. Ironically, one of the main reasons that he lost his faith was due to the pseudo-scientific teleological arguments of fundamentalist Christians, the Intelligent Design of the 1800's. As he studied and observed the world, he couldn't reconcile what he found with the religious based theories that were accepted at the time, so he was forced to reject them.

I think I was misunderstood.