I have a friend who runs a gold mining YouTube channel. He recently obtained a claim on a couple of old mines. Folks have thrown large rocks down the shaft wiping out a few sections of ladder. This past weekend we headed to the mine to replace some of those ladder sections. This video is all underground and on ropes, so it's pretty interesting. If you are afraid of heights, this may bother you a little. I've been about 150' down the shaft when I ran out of rope. Still couldn't see the bottom. Hope you enjoy it!



Abby Normal

Very cool! Is your friend hoping to remove metals/ore from the mine for profit or more as a hobby for cool rocks? I'm a geologist, so abandoned mines have always been a favorite place to go.

Posted by Cherokee Very cool! Is your friend hoping to remove metals/ore from the mine for profit or more as a hobby for cool rocks? I'm a geologist, so abandoned mines have always been a favorite place to go.

He's a geologist as well, but I think he's just looking to find bit of gold out of this mine. Small scale only, not commercial. He spoke with the last guy that worked the mine back in the early 80s, and that guy says there is some gold left but not worth trying for production.

I recognize your thumbnail. I think we know each other, either directly or from some other forums.

Abby

Very interesting! Have you gone all the way down on rope yet?

Awesome project! What were you using to anchor the ropes? I'm a rock climber, so I always keep an eye out for ropes I saw you were using an old school friction block rappel device, you may consider upgrading to a gri-gri (or ATC for a double rope rappel) and a prusik knot backup, as this system is a bit more fail-safe in the event of an accident. Those old blocks were used for quite some time and work alright, but as I recall they don't generate quite as much stopping power as the newer rappel devices. I'm also not sure how you were lowering/lifting the ladder sections, but I'd definitely stick those on a pulley system to give yourself a 3:1 or 5:1 mechanical advantage, it'd make your life a whole lot easier.

Awesome video, thanks for sharing! This looks like a really fun project!

Posted by Xiketic Very interesting! Have you gone all the way down on rope yet?

Not yet. The first time I was there, I got to the end of a 165' rope and still couldn't see the bottom. I'm guessing that the bottom is around 300'. The mine owner spoke an old guy that was the last one to actually work the mine. He says there are a couple of levels that are still above the water line. Back in the day, they had to pump water out of the lower levels.

Jeff is biting at the bit to get to the bottom, but we want to make certain that the ladders are solid before continuing down. If this was just an explore, we would rope down without messing with ladders. He wants to do some work in the mine so solid ladders are a must.

Abby

Posted by "ghost" Awesome project! What were you using to anchor the ropes? I'm a rock climber, so I always keep an eye out for ropes I saw you were using an old school friction block rappel device, you may consider upgrading to a gri-gri (or ATC for a double rope rappel) and a prusik knot backup, as this system is a bit more fail-safe in the event of an accident. Those old blocks were used for quite some time and work alright, but as I recall they don't generate quite as much stopping power as the newer rappel devices. I'm also not sure how you were lowering/lifting the ladder sections, but I'd definitely stick those on a pulley system to give yourself a 3:1 or 5:1 mechanical advantage, it'd make your life a whole lot easier. Awesome video, thanks for sharing! This looks like a really fun project!

I'm familiar with the devices that you have suggested. In fact I have an ATC that I carry as a backup descender or for lowering heavy loads. Our anchor is a massive steel headframe built out of 4" pipe. I understand the pulley system, but it would be awkward to set up the capture rigging that would be required since we don't have long enough rope to rig a 3:1 capture down to the 80' level where we will be working next. I would be more inclined to use an electric winch.

The one point that got into my head a bit was cutting loose the ladder I was standing on. Even though I was fully roped and locked off, everything in my brain was screaming, "Don't cut the ladder!!".

It was a lot of fun. We'll be heading back in a week or two. Hopefully we can wrap it up at that time.

Abby

Posted by Abby Normal I recognize your thumbnail. I think we know each other, either directly or from some other forums. Abby

I'm sure you're right I'll be heading down Owens Valley way later this season, I hope to get some good mines in. I never explored the upper workings in my thumbnail's mine, which I'd like to do since they're quite extensive. There's a few mills as well that I am really curious how they changes in the last 4 years since I was there last. Big plans, perhaps too ambitious.

On another note, I've never done any mine exploration with ropes but it seems like fun.

Posted by "ghost" I saw you were using an old school friction block rappel device, you may consider upgrading to a gri-gri (or ATC for a double rope rappel) and a prusik knot backup, as this system is a bit more fail-safe in the event of an accident. Those old blocks were used for quite some time and work alright, but as I recall they don't generate quite as much stopping power as the newer rappel devices.

Very interested in this topic as well. Correct me if I'm wrong Abby, but from what I understand in rock climbing modern devices work better. However, when you're planning to spend a long time just hanging on rope the rappel rack is a better choice. Plus, when descending the long drops found in mines quickly, you need the rappel rack or the rope will burn through your device.

I was similarly surprised when going from rock climbing to caving at the difference in equipment.

Posted by Xiketic Very interested in this topic as well. Correct me if I'm wrong Abby, but from what I understand in rock climbing modern devices work better. However, when you're planning to spend a long time just hanging on rope the rappel rack is a better choice. Plus, when descending the long drops found in mines quickly, you need the rappel rack or the rope will burn through your device.

I'm not sure there is any clear answer to this. Cavers have been using racks for generations, and old-timers like me still to. Some like the figure-8 style descenders, but I don't like the idea of having to completely remove the device from the harness to attach or remove from the rope. Even the Verso devices require you to open your carabiner to attach or remove. I've had to do changeovers while remaining on rope, and those options don't work for me. The Petzl Stop works well on some ropes, but on my beautifully soft New England ropes it should be called a "Slow". It requires an additional carabiner to control speed. The Petzl Rig looks interesting, but their own description called out "expert users only" so I don't know where that leaves it. My own opinion is for each explorer to find the device that makes the most sense to him/her.

I think that long, fast descents do heat the device, but it's actually the rope that gets damaged from the high heat. Cavers on particularly long drops will sometimes pour water on their descender to help keep it cool.

I was similarly surprised when going from rock climbing to caving at the difference in equipment.

Yeah, many of us are geared up exactly like cavers. Our purpose is to explore and the rope gear facilitates that. Climbing is a very different sport. Although much of the gear looks the same, it's designed for different activities. My harnesses are caving harnesses rather than climbing harnesses. The front attachment point is lower and designed for a half-round link. I run cows tails for those tricky situations where I need to tie in before adjusting my gear. Some of the mines in England have wire ropes bolted in particularly dangerous sections so you can clip in to arrest a fall. Still, finding what works best is takes a bit of time and practice.

Abby

(these questions coming from a lifelong rock climber who's not done a single day of roped caving)

Posted by Abby Normal Some like the figure-8 style descenders, but I don't like the idea of having to completely remove the device from the harness to attach or remove from the rope.

Interesting, I'm curious why you feel this way? This is the case for every modern rappel/belay/pulley device I've used (real old stuff being the exception), and in most cases it feels like a necessary bit of redundancy. Perhaps this is not the case in caving, maybe due to a higher potential for getting trapped?

Posted by Abby Normal I think that long, fast descents do heat the device, but it's actually the rope that gets damaged from the high heat. Cavers on particularly long drops will sometimes pour water on their descender to help keep it cool.

Wow, I hadn't considered that at all! That's a common problem when quickly rappelling/bailing in big wall climbing (if you need to rap, say, 1,000ft before that big storm hits you), but I hadn't considered it might be an issue in caving as well. The rack makes more sense now, though when I'm rapping a big wall I'm usually simul-rapping with my partner, so a gri-gri works the best. Thanks for sharing!

Posted by Abby Normal Climbing is a very different sport. Although much of the gear looks the same, it's designed for different activities.

One of the biggest questions I've had with roped caving is how you set up the rope systems. Going down seems pretty similar to climbing in most ways; fix a rope and rappel. But, how do you typically get back up? Do you leave all your ropes fixed there on the way down then ascend back up using a double-ascender setup? That sounds like a crazy amount of rope to be hauling around. How do you set anchors for your ropes? Lugging around a climbing style traditional gear rack is a bitch and a half above ground, I can't imagine dragging it through a cave. Are there even cracks down there to plug gear? O.o

I have a lot of questions, feel free to ignore me if you so choose

Posted by "ghost" One of the biggest questions I've had with roped caving is how you set up the rope systems. Going down seems pretty similar to climbing in most ways; fix a rope and rappel. But, how do you typically get back up? Do you leave all your ropes fixed there on the way down then ascend back up using a double-ascender setup? That sounds like a crazy amount of rope to be hauling around. How do you set anchors for your ropes? Lugging around a climbing style traditional gear rack is a bitch and a half above ground, I can't imagine dragging it through a cave. Are there even cracks down there to plug gear? O.o

Answering your last few questions about caving:

Yes, you leave your ropes fixed and ascend using two ascenders. In caving at least, you have a chest ascender and an ascender attached to a foot loop to squat your way up. It's a crazy amount of rope/gear to lug around... especially when you're trying to squeeze through a crack that's barely big enough to fit you.

You don't rely on cracks/camming devices in a cave. Generally, you anchor from top down with a bolt or sturdy rock. Ascending is either a free climb or a bolt climb, as described in this link. http://caves.org/s...%20Bottom%20Up.pdf Basically you drill bolts into the wall as high as you can and slowly ascend on those.

Posted by "ghost" (these questions coming from a lifelong rock climber who's not done a single day of roped caving) Interesting, I'm curious why you feel this way? This is the case for every modern rappel/belay/pulley device I've used (real old stuff being the exception), and in most cases it feels like a necessary bit of redundancy. Perhaps this is not the case in caving, maybe due to a higher potential for getting trapped?

My concern is primarily the chance of dropping the device and being left with no descender. I've had a few instances where I had to change over from rappelling to climbing without ever putting a foot on the ground. The most recent case was rattlesnakes just below me. Being able to change over without having unattached gear is a benefit for someone as clumsy as I am.

One of the biggest questions I've had with roped caving is how you set up the rope systems. Going down seems pretty similar to climbing in most ways; fix a rope and rappel. But, how do you typically get back up? Do you leave all your ropes fixed there on the way down then ascend back up using a double-ascender setup? That sounds like a crazy amount of rope to be hauling around. How do you set anchors for your ropes? Lugging around a climbing style traditional gear rack is a bitch and a half above ground, I can't imagine dragging it through a cave. Are there even cracks down there to plug gear? O.o I have a lot of questions, feel free to ignore me if you so choose

The answer is a big "It depends". Any time we are doing new exploration, we always leave the ropes in place. Occasionally we find an alternate route out and we have to go back and retrieve our gear. The majority of the time we exit the same way we come in. So we do carry a crazy amount of rope. It wouldn't be unusual for three of us to take 500' or more. On the image below, we hauled at least 600' to the top of the mountain to descend the upper shaft.




We don't haul traditional protection pieces into the mines. We can usually rig anchors off of large rocks, existing structures, ore car rail, and other more "creative" anchors. We do carry a lot of slings and quite a few free carabiners. For mine explorers, we rarely use bolts because the rock is usually fractured from blasting. That said, I've been in a number of mines where bolts have been placed in good rock. I do have friends in England who have bolted their way up to drifts that could not be accessed by any other means. Those rare places are exactly the way the miners left them including hob nailed boot prints from 100 years prior.

Although there is a lot of cross-over between caving and mine exploring, there are significant differences as well. I've done a little caving and a lot of mine exploring.

Abby

Posted by Xiketic You don't rely on cracks/camming devices in a cave. Generally, you anchor from top down with a bolt or sturdy rock. Ascending is either a free climb or a bolt climb, as described in this link.

Jeez, my respect for caving has gone through the roof! Above ground this is referred to as bolted aid climbing, though it's been driven out of the public favor now that modern free climbing techniques have advanced so much. Mad props to whoever's carrying the rotary hammer and all the batteries....

Posted by Abby Normal Being able to change over without having unattached gear is a benefit for someone as clumsy as I am.

Fair enough! I tie paracord to my more critical gear pieces for the same reason It's always a great backup to practice a biner brake or a Munter hitch beforehand, these have saved me more than once!

Posted by Abby Normal We don't haul traditional protection pieces into the mines. We can usually rig anchors off of large rocks, existing structures, ore car rail, and other more "creative" anchors. We do carry a lot of slings and quite a few free carabiners. For mine explorers, we rarely use bolts because the rock is usually fractured from blasting. That said, I've been in a number of mines where bolts have been placed in good rock. I do have friends in England who have bolted their way up to drifts that could not be accessed by any other means. Those rare places are exactly the way the miners left them including hob nailed boot prints from 100 years prior.

Interesting, there's a similar amount of "just figure it out" in climbing as well. I was concerned about wooden support beams rotting, but I suppose in dry shafts there's probably not a lot of water to do the rotting. Good point about the bolts, that's the same reason we don't climb roadside choss above ground.

Thanks for the response, you've most definitely peaked my interest in the sub-subterranean! Perhaps I will venture down at some point if I happen across an experienced guide to lead the way. Imagine the possibilities for underground first-ascents!

This makes me want to go caving soon now

Still have yet to get into real proper caving