So I have a for realsies question for y'all. We all maintain the "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints" motto in our own way...but where do we fall when a place is in the process of being demolished? Can we admittedly take things from this place, knowing that if we don't then it will die with the location? Or do we still have to pretend we take nothing?

(Let's not turn this into a flame ware or an excuse to steal shit, but instead...let's just talk about it like adults )

I've noticed that a lot of people who preach about ethics often have the coolest collections of shit. That probably doesn't completely answer your question but it's worth noting.

Personally, I don't take anything, or even move things around more than I absolutely have to. I explore to document what I find and what I see with my photography, so I feel like I should be kind of a non-factor in the whole process. I try to be as subtle about it as possible.

For me, the collecting is taking cool photographs of a site that capture not only how it looked, but the way it felt when I was there.

That being said, I can't really fault people for taking something small from a site that's being actively demolished, given that it's being tossed away anyway. I wouldn't put that on the same ethical plane as someone scrapping or raiding a site to loot it.

Posted by Forgotten Beauty Photography That being said, I can't really fault people for taking something small from a site that's being actively demolished, given that it's being tossed away anyway. I wouldn't put that on the same ethical plane as someone scrapping or raiding a site to loot it.

This is where I kind of am with it. I say that with this in mind: I work in construction and a lot of my customers are demolition guys. If they see my pics and then tell me about this cool thing they got out of one of the buildings they were in the process of demolishing...I don't feel like the exploring code of ethics is even slightly applicable there.

Posted by Astro So I have a for realsies question for y'all. We all maintain the "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints" motto in our own way...but where do we fall when a place is in the process of being demolished? Can we admittedly take things from this place, knowing that if we don't then it will die with the location? Or do we still have to pretend we take nothing? (Let's not turn this into a flame ware or an excuse to steal shit, but instead...let's just talk about it like adults )

Don't steal from demo contractors... they will most likely hammer you.

I've shot demos by permission.
About the only thing they insisted I do was not take anything without the super's permission.
During a demo, that contractor has active control of the site; they legally own it. If you take anything during that time frame you are stealing from the contractor. Everything there is theirs!
The ones I known take a very dim view of trespassers and especially thieves and scrappers.

If you take nothing you are always in a better legal position if you are arrested.
If you haven't been arrested and take trespassing risks eventually you will be arrested or detained.
I believe in damage control; keep a possible encounter with cops survivable with minimum damage. It starts before I enter a site by knowing that I'm leaving with only pictures. It's a load off your mind and back to operate like this.
Looting wastes valuable time, energy, and space

Take nothing, leave only footprints if you must.

Posted by blackhawk Don't steal from demo contractors... they will most likely hammer you. I've shot demos by permission. About the only thing they insisted I do was not take anything without the super's permission. During a demo, that contractor has active control of the site; they legally own it. If you take anything during that time frame you are stealing from the contractor. Everything there is theirs! The ones I known take a very dim view of trespassers and especially thieves and scrappers. If you take nothing you are always in a better legal position if you are arrested. If you haven't been arrested and take trespassing risks eventually you will be arrested or detained. I believe in damage control; keep a possible encounter with cops survivable with minimum damage. It starts before I enter a site by knowing that I'm leaving with only pictures. It's a load off your mind and back to operate like this. Looting wastes valuable time, energy, and space Take nothing, leave only footprints if you must.

I'm going to guess you wrote this before reading my above comment. I'm not talking about walking into a demolition site and just cleaning house. I'm simply talking in general ethics. Not legalities. At all.

Posted by Astro I'm going to guess you wrote this before reading my above comment. I'm not talking about walking into a demolition site and just cleaning house. I'm simply talking in general ethics. Not legalities. At all.

Yeah, the time stamp is buggered. Not sure why except I did some revisions before the final post.


Ethics are a moot point if you steal; you already broke the most fundamental rule of all societies.
The legalities are the most important thing to know; damage control means survival to be able to continue exploring and not damage your life.

Ethics are simple, treat the site as if we're a museum.

Posted by blackhawk Ethics are a moot point if you steal

I disagree, is stealing someone's garbage unethical? Is it even stealing at that point?

Ethics are simple, treat the site as if we're a museum.

Most museums don't have trackhoes running through them...

Posted by Astro I disagree, is stealing someone's garbage unethical? Is it even stealing at that point? Most museums don't have trackhoes running through them...

At an demo site, everything there belongs to the contractor. They make a lot of their money based on what they can salvage.
They are concerned with:
People stealing or damaging their equipment/tools.
Stealing anything from the site.
Creating hazards for their workers.
Trespassers being injured or killed.

The ones I know are very protective of their sites.
Before I developed a relationship with this one contractor they wouldn't let me take -anything-.
If they tolerate you trespassing and taking pictures, be content with that unless you have a working relationship with them.

It may not sound reasonable to you but it's what the owner, in this case the demo contractor thinks.
A run in with them can prove costly.
They can also be your best friend and give you no looking over your shoulder access to secure sites people here only dream of.
You don't make friends by stealing from them...

Active Demo? If have room for that boiler it'll be in my living room. Fair game.

Posted by jeepdave Active Demo? If have room for that boiler it'll be in my living room. Fair game.

I'll wait for the 'I got busted' thread to rake you over the... coals

Posted by blackhawk At an demo site, everything there belongs to the contractor. They make a lot of their money based on what they can salvage. They are concerned with: People stealing or damaging their equipment/tools. Stealing anything from the site. Creating hazards for their workers. Trespassers being injured or killed. The ones I know are very protective of their sites. Before I developed a relationship with this one contractor they wouldn't let me take -anything-. If they tolerate you trespassing and taking pictures, be content with that unless you have a working relationship with them. It may not sound reasonable to you but it's what the owner, in this case the demo contractor thinks. A run in with them can prove costly. They can also be your best friend and give you no looking over your shoulder access to secure sites people here only dream of. You don't make friends by stealing from them...

You're not actually paying any attention to what I am saying, apparently and we're not having the same discussion here. It makes it really hard to talk to someone who isn't even discussing the same thing.

FOR THE SAKE OF EXPLORING ETHICS, IN THIS CONVERSATION I AM NOT CONCERNED WITH EITHER LEGALITIES (because we assume any taking of items from a place is illegal, as is trespassing...therefore that is moot)NOR AM I CONCERNED WITH THE CONTRACTOR.

I am asking, FROM A FELLOW EXPLORER'S STANDPOINT, IS IT MORE ETHICAL TO TAKE KNICK KNACKS FROM A LOCATION IF IT IS BEING DEMOLISHED THAN IF IT IS JUST ABANDONED.

Why are you not understanding this?

I work in construction/demolition. Your points are not really valid in this case and question...

Normally it never crosses my mind to remove anything so that it would still be there for next explorer to see also. However, there have been 2 times I took something because I knew it was going to be destroyed or plowed over. One item was on the property not within so in my mind it didn't really count...lol that was a candle holder that looked like a cat and the other was a hand crafted mourning ring I found where scrappers had already destroyed some bannisters. Because the places are gone these items remind me of a couple of my favorite places. They are the last link to something that once was. They make for a good story/conversation

Each to his own ethics I guess, I don't agree with taking stuff after all its just stuff. And I don't need more stuff.

The old argument (been going on since before I got here) that's it will be destroyed in the demo so its not stealing its "rescuing" only holds water if its something really worth preserving AND youre not keeping it for yourself.

I guess if I spotted a $20 bill laying around Id (unofficially) reconsider my position, yes Im a hypocrite...


(edit: I guess even if I did take something I wouldn't write about it on the Internet)

Honestly I look at it as preservation. Take it. It's a piece of history that is going to be destroyed. No one will ever know it existed. I don't see anything wrong ethics'wise. That line is pretty fine anyway. If you think about it... we take photos, leave foot prints yeah yeah, well those foot prints aren't supposed to be there right? Just saying.

Posted by 2Xplorations I guess if I spotted a $20 bill laying around Id (unofficially) reconsider my position, yes Im a hypocrite...

money can do that haha

(edit: I guess even if I did take something I wouldn't write about it on the Internet)

^^I had a weak moment

While I'm with blackhawk on it probably not being worth the legal risk, I have no ethical issue with someone taking things that are going to be destroyed anyway. As for taking from places not undergoing demolition, I've taken very small things as mementos. Not actual relics or anything that people would want to find while exploring, just a limit of one piece of brick/ glass/ nail/ etc. per building, just to have something from a location.

In one instance I've also taken some patient records, though that was a unique case in that the building had recently caught fire, there was a pile of semi-burned papers on the ground outside, and it was looking like rain.

People will do whatever they feel they can get away with.

I've taken whole armfuls of stuff out of buildings that were being demolished, items that were unique to the locations and would have been plowed into the ground or scrapped otherwise.

I would never dream of taking items then selling them on.

I'm going to throw myself under the bus on this...but the wife and I have a small collection of small stuff. To anyone *except* explorers it's useless junk but to US it's part of where we were. Now, I'm not talking about a stolen Mona Lisa behind my TV but small, useless items that add nothing to the...what do I want to say...patina? Fuses from old fuse box's, old broken (found mostly on the ground, never pulled off or out) door knobs, pieces of broken tile, broken locks, mostly anything broken.

Now, if that makes me a bad person or an unethical person when it comes to exploring then I guess I don't want to be a part of this group and ban me now. We can all preach the good word about take nothing, but I would bet $100 that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU has, at one point in time, taken SOMETHING from some location. It could even be as useless as a rock. But you know it's displayed proudly in your home. So let's not be on high horses here people.

Posted by Astro You're not actually paying any attention to what I am saying, apparently and we're not having the same discussion here. It makes it really hard to talk to someone who isn't even discussing the same thing. FOR THE SAKE OF EXPLORING ETHICS, IN THIS CONVERSATION I AM NOT CONCERNED WITH EITHER LEGALITIES (because we assume any taking of items from a place is illegal, as is trespassing...therefore that is moot)NOR AM I CONCERNED WITH THE CONTRACTOR. I am asking, FROM A FELLOW EXPLORER'S STANDPOINT, IS IT MORE ETHICAL TO TAKE KNICK KNACKS FROM A LOCATION IF IT IS BEING DEMOLISHED THAN IF IT IS JUST ABANDONED. Why are you not understanding this? I work in construction/demolition. Your points are not really valid in this case and question...

I understand you clearly.
Stealing isn't ethical.