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UER Forum > US: Great Lakes > Hazards safety. (Viewed 2451 times)
Neal 


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Hazards safety.
< on 1/18/2016 12:17 PM >
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I got a guy named Aaron Pongo from Chicago/Hindsdale/Moneee area who's an architect (and spends a lot of time rehabbing old buildings) that told me this on Facebook, thought I'd share it with you all.

Feel free to add/remark.

General guidelines.

Yellow wrapping around pipes = fiberglass.
White wrap around pipes = asbestos.
9x9 floor tiles = asbestos in the glue...it's ok to walk on if it's not cracked or peeling. But probably have a respirator.
12x12 floor tiles = usually not asbestos but if the're the same vintage as 9x9s nearby be suspicious.
I assume all paint contains lead.
Suspended ceiling tiles = not asbestos.
Ceiling tiles glued directly to the ceiling = asbestos.
Ceiling tiles with a grid of holes = asbestos.
Countertops frequently contains asbestos. If the laminate is peeling and you see stringy stuff, stay away.



[last edit 1/18/2016 12:19 PM by Neal - edited 2 times]

Haxsaw 


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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 1 on 1/19/2016 4:18 AM >
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Well everything but the pipes is new. Guess I should get myself a decent respirator if I want to explore.




IDChris 


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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 2 on 1/19/2016 4:56 AM >
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Glue on ceiling tiles not always asbestos. We've torn out perforated ceiling tiles from the 40s through 60s era in school renovations and the asbestos tests were negative. That included the perforated 12x12 tiles with the grid and random perforations.
Another school we did that was built in '63 had solid 12x12 ceiling tiles that were positive. So was all the floor tile.

My 1961 camper trailer has original 9x9 floor tile.




cdevon 


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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 3 on 1/19/2016 8:56 AM >
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this was just a pile of asbestos covering the floor and table about 2 inches deep- no big deal...

1.





may have fallen off this boiler and/or overhead pipes...

1.









When I say I'm 'clean and sober', it means I've showered and I'm headed to the liquor store.
blackhawk 

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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 4 on 1/20/2016 4:04 AM >
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Posted by Neal
I got a guy named Aaron Pongo from Chicago/Hindsdale/Moneee area who's an architect (and spends a lot of time rehabbing old buildings) that told me this on Facebook, thought I'd share it with you all.

Feel free to add/remark.

General guidelines.

Yellow wrapping around pipes = fiberglass.
White wrap around pipes = asbestos.
9x9 floor tiles = asbestos in the glue...it's ok to walk on if it's not cracked or peeling. But probably have a respirator.
12x12 floor tiles = usually not asbestos but if the're the same vintage as 9x9s nearby be suspicious.
I assume all paint contains lead.


Sealed asbestos is zero hazard.
Lead paint? Really? Only if you eat it...
As I have said before in heavily contaminated sites with asbestos blowing around a respirator is not enough. Avoid these.

Otherwise unless it's there's a breeze and it's dry, or you are disturbing it, asbestos is not a big issue.
Note: never disturb vermiculite insulation. It maybe contaminated with asbestos; the two occur naturally together.




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Piecat 


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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 5 on 1/20/2016 2:04 PM >
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Posted by blackhawk

As I have said before in heavily contaminated sites with asbestos blowing around a respirator is not enough. Avoid these.



How is a respirator not enough?





DawnPatrol 


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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 6 on 1/20/2016 2:48 PM >
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When asbestos is flying around in the air it gets on your clothes, in your hair, etc.. So you're still breathing it in after you've left and taken your respirator off. Plus respirators are supposed to be fitted a certain way to ensure your safety and I don't think it would be a far fetched assumption to say most explorers probably don't have properly fitted masks. The respirators reduce the risk, but the only way to eliminate it is to avoid the building.




blackhawk 

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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 7 on 1/20/2016 5:09 PM >
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Posted by DawnPatrol
When asbestos is flying around in the air it gets on your clothes, in your hair, etc.. So you're still breathing it in after you've left and taken your respirator off. Plus respirators are supposed to be fitted a certain way to ensure your safety and I don't think it would be a far fetched assumption to say most explorers probably don't have properly fitted masks. The respirators reduce the risk, but the only way to eliminate it is to avoid the building.


Yeah, do it right or not. Don't fool yourself thinking you're safe when you're not. You need full PPE and decontamination afterwards if you want to play in the snow.




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Pongo 


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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 8 on 1/22/2016 7:56 PM >
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Hey guys, I'm the Pongo referenced by Neal in the original post.

A couple things I'd like to add:

- My ID's on asbestos are rules of thumb only. It's just a way to make a quick judgement call. Like IDChris mentioned, there are plenty of exceptions. In the professional world, my firm uses these rules during our initial walkthroughs to get a feel for the scope of work on a project. Legally, if we suspect asbestos in the building, we have to test everything, including items like the solid 2x4 ceiling tiles, etc.

- My comment on lead paint was coming from the perspective of an architect. If we are doing work in the space, it has got to be remediated. That being said, paint chips on the ground are probably harmful to your health if you're kicking it around and breathing it in. Yeah don't eat the paint haha.

- Like blackhawk was suggesting, asbestos is really no problem if it's sealed. That's kind of a loose term in an abandoned building, however since the place is typically falling apart. Since it takes decades for ill effects to really creep in, it's really hard to monitor your asbestos intake. Which brings me to my final point...

- Wear a respirator. Period. A gentleman came to my work a couple weeks ago to talk about indoor air quality in the built environment. Air Quality Sciences recently conducted a study of over 300 US Schools and found that the average VOC level was taken at 4600 µg/m³, which is 23x higher than the acceptable level for habitation. If the buildings that we use on a daily basis are sick, how do you think that abandoned buildings stack up?

Next time you're in a dark abandoned room, focus your flashlight beam. See all those particles floating around? Some of it is probably fine, but what do you think the chances are that some of it is asbestos, mold, carcinogens, or some other harmful particulate? Limited exposure in one thing, but for those of us who get out and explore more than a couple times a year, the risk is worth thinking about.

http://www.amazon....eywords=respirator

Is your health worth $25 and a mild inconvenience? This particular product even comes with P100 filters, which filter out 99.97% of particulates, including asbestos. If anyone has more info on filters, please correct me if I'm wrong or chime in with more info.

Happy and safe exploring, guys.




blackhawk 

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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 9 on 1/23/2016 3:17 AM >
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Pongo by your logic you should always wear a respirator every hour of the day even at home. You should see the dust storms we get in the Permian Basin. They can turn the sun orange and darken the sky.

Except for clean rooms there's always visible dust particles in the air. Humans evolved to be able cope with a moderate amount of dust, small amounts of toxins, and radiation with no harmful effect. In fact to a point the former two strengthen you on a cellular level. With no toxins or radiation to stimulate the cells you would be less healthy.

With lead you almost need to literally eat it to ingest enough for lead poisoning. I worked with it for over 30 years in paints and solders. The amount of lead in lead based paints isn't that high to begin with except for structural steel formulas. Unless you're sanding or burning it for many hours you simply can't ingest enough. Merely stirring up some paint dust isn't going to do it. By the way lead paint has a distinct almond like smell when you are sanding it.

What I'm saying is if a site is so contaminated with anything it requires a respirator, more steps are needed. At the very least, stripping and bagging your clothes after leaving the site. Even then you will have some exposure. For a heavily contaminated asbestos site that has a lot of airborne particles and dry loose asbestos, it is best to avoid altogether.




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Neal 


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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 10 on 1/23/2016 2:11 PM >
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By the way, I have a classmate who's good at fixing buildings. He says the insulation above the ceilings, like the cotton, he says if it's pink it's guaranteed to be asbestos-free. Any other color could have asbestos in it.




Pongo 


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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 11 on 1/23/2016 5:52 PM >
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Neal, thanks for that tip. I've never heard that one before.

Backhawk - admittedly I don't know much about lead paint so I appreciate your experience with the stuff. It's good to hear that it's not much of a hazard for explorers. The extent of my experience is strictly professional... in the few instances I've run into the stuff in a school renovation, the administrators absolutely freak out and we can't ignore it. One time we were just tack welding in a few locations on painted bar joists. My guess is that the sue happy culture of America feeds into this.

I wasn't really suggesting that dust = death, sorry if it came off that way haha. I was just trying to visualize the problem, because we rarely see the air we breathe.

I totally agree that we are built to cope with all sorts of toxins, the question is just how much. If all 300 schools in that study were 23x the level "deemed safe", what is the likelihood that our abandoned buildings are also sick? At the end of the day I guess it's just a question of risk tolerance and I err on the side of caution.



[last edit 1/23/2016 5:53 PM by Pongo - edited 1 times]

blackhawk 

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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 12 on 1/23/2016 6:54 PM >
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Posted by Pongo
Neal, thanks for that tip. I've never heard that one before.

Backhawk - admittedly I don't know much about lead paint so I appreciate your experience with the stuff. It's good to hear that it's not much of a hazard for explorers. The extent of my experience is strictly professional... in the few instances I've run into the stuff in a school renovation, the administrators absolutely freak out and we can't ignore it. One time we were just tack welding in a few locations on painted bar joists. My guess is that the sue happy culture of America feeds into this.

I wasn't really suggesting that dust = death, sorry if it came off that way haha. I was just trying to visualize the problem, because we rarely see the air we breathe.

I totally agree that we are built to cope with all sorts of toxins, the question is just how much. If all 300 schools in that study were 23x the level "deemed safe", what is the likelihood that our abandoned buildings are also sick? At the end of the day I guess it's just a question of risk tolerance and I err on the side of caution.


The funny part is asbestos literally blows down many streets to this day in minute quantities. Asbestos occurs naturally in Serpentine formations. Some counties use Serpentine for road grade stone.

Lead poisoning from paint is more of a hazard if you are burning it. Never a good idea to inhale lead oxides as a smoke. Overheating solder (1150F) can also produce them. Prolonged exposure to particles when sanding it can eventually lead to it as well.

In general an adult really has to try pretty hard (dumb ass stupid) to get elevated levels of lead. We painted a bridge with lead based marine paint. Each 5 gal pale weighed about 120#. We were covered in that stuff, literally for 3 months. No one tested developed elevated lead levels in their blood though. Lead was a great paint additive. Lead based paints flowed smoother than the best non-lead paints. It has never been equaled in that role, plus it has excellent corrosion control properties.

My one friend used to use his soldering iron to keep his coffee warm for years with no apparent ill effects; lol, no recommended.

Vaporized elemental mercury on the other hand can turn you into a drooling tard with one breathe of it...




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Pongo 


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Re: Hazards safety.
< Reply # 13 on 1/26/2016 7:15 PM >
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Blackhawk - clearly you know your stuff when it comes to lead paint. Thanks for sharing that info. It sounds like it's not much of a hazard for the casual explorer, but for squatters or slow-travellers... watch where you light your campfires.




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