A comment in my post in the photo thread got me thinking about my composition - I recently took some photos in a paper mill that had a lot of random rubble around, but it ended up making a lot of my shots look very busy and lacking in clear focus. A couple where it was particularly bad:

1.

The Way Forward by Jon Washburn, on Flickr

2.

Gear Ratio by Jon Washburn, on Flickr

3.

Remnants by Jon Washburn, on Flickr

The rest of the shots from the location are here and you can get an idea of what I mean.

I'm looking for advice in particular on how to tighten up my composition in this kind of environment - how to make the subject clearer when there's a lot of background clutter.

This is an excellent question that I'm glad you posted and I'll be very interested to see how others respond. It's something that's not exclusive to UE photography and I still struggle with it personally.

A lot of how you deal with visual problems like this revolves around your own personal style of shooting. For that reason, I'm going to use some photo examples of my own work to show you how I've personally dealt with that kind of situation and maybe it'll help you brainstorm on how to manage a situation like that with your own style. Keep in mind these aren't the greatest photos, just the best I could find in my collection for this particular question.

Use strong/clearly defined compositions. Make use of easily identifiable compositions like rule of thirds, lead-in lines, symmetry, etc..

I don't particularly like the content of this photo, but I believe the composition works because it loosely uses the rule of thirds which brings a little bit of order to the clutter: https://www.flickr...dateposted-public/


Try to find strong contrast. The issue with the clutter is that it all looks alike. If possible, try to find something that contrasts the cluttered areas and formulate your shot to exploit that contrast.

This room was particularly cluttered, but using the clean structure of the brick wall to contrast with the clutter of the room worked out rather well in my opinion: https://www.flickr...dateposted-public/

You can also make use of lighting for contrast. In this particular photo, without the contrast of the shadows and light, it would just look flat and horrible: https://www.flickr...dateposted-public/

Frame your shots tighter. Sometimes you get focused on the 'big picture' and you want to get the biggest shot of something that crams as much detail in as possible. Getting out of that mindset and looking for a closer up shot can sometimes be beneficial.

This is a nature example, but suffers the same problem as the rest.

This shot gives a nice overview of the area I wanted to capture, but all of the cluttered rocks end up making it look flat. There's no sense of scale or size and it's just really not all that interesting: https://www.flickr...dateposted-public/

However, by getting in closer you'll notice I actually had more to work with. I have nearby rocks giving the photo a better sense of scale, the shape of the pit outlines the frame giving the shot a more solid composition, and I've ended up with better contrast between the rocks and sand. https://www.flickr...dateposted-public/

Obviously, this is all just my personal opinion and what has worked for me in the past, but hopefully you can get some use out of it.

Thank you, that's very helpful advice. I think it would help me a lot to tighten up some of my shots for environments like this. I tend to shoot with a wide-angle lens, so I need to get in the habit of walking up on my subjects more to get a tighter angle when necessary.

I should've given more consideration to the light for this particular location since it's so open. I think this location in particular might benefit from an early morning shoot when the light is angled low and coming in from the other side of the structure.

In your opinion, does the framing in this shot work better at organizing the clutter?


Brickpile by Jon Washburn, on Flickr

In addition to what DawnPatrol has said, contrast between near / far is also really useful. The example photo in the gym makes good use of that IMO.

Your photo of the gear on the wall is my favorite. If you'd just mess around with cropping it in a bit, I think it will be great.

The last one you posted is better than some of the ones in your first post for sure. I personally do not like the column coming down dead smack in the center of the photo, though - it makes it about left vs right and the right hogs all the attention.

If you had captured more ground beneath the column, you could have had a "rule of thirds" photo horizontally, which probably would have been more successful.

Posted by DawnPatrol This is an excellent question that I'm glad you posted and I'll be very interested to see how others respond. It's something that's not exclusive to UE photography and I still struggle with it personally.

Dawn this advice is extremely useful and I'm grateful you went through the time to make this. Cluttered environments is something I struggle to capture in pictures and give up on them almost every time. I'm screenshotting this post on my phone.

Glad I was able to help a few of you.

Forgotten, that one does look a little less cluttered, but there's also not much of interest as far as a focal goes. Another tip that might help is to have a very clearly defined focal. If you can make use of those other tips to create a very distinct focal, the clutter won't be as much of an issue.

Some things just don't shoot well. As you stated using the golden 15 minutes might help. If so know exactly what and how you want to capture, you're time frame is very limited. Some subjects I don't even bother with. What's the point when you can find killer subjects that just beg to make keepers?

Try more freestyle shooting; ditch the tripod and shoot at eye level only when it enhances the subject. Ground up to as high as you can climb should be consider as well all angles of the subject if it serves you.

For me, I find one point...and lead to it and/or focus to it. Framing will also help you with a ton of clutter and an all around busy shot.

For this one, I only focused on one part, instead of the whole, so that the rest of the clutter wasn't as 'defined'...and is more pleasing to the eye. You can see that it's busy, but it doesn't give you a headache.

SMDSC_0408 by tiffers, on Flickr

Same concept here.

SMDSC_0210 by tiffers, on Flickr

For environments, as suggested and I had mentioned, leading lines and framing are what I typically shoot for. I shoot mostly small details and things other folks typically look over, instead of 'rooms'...so, I don't have much advice for that other than what I've already mentioned. Though, this thread has a ton of good advice.

The Lego shoot isn't working at all for me.
Keep the blur in the background unless you have a very good artistic reason not too. The big blurred piece in the middle screws it from the get go.

Too high, too much angle downward and the face that should have been the center piece of the image is buried instead of standing out. Lines of the blocks could have been framed better too.

With clutter many times less is better. Unfortunately the OP's images have few cool stand outs like that valve in your shot.

Posted by blackhawk The Lego shoot isn't working at all for me. Keep the blur in the background unless you have a very good artistic reason not too. The big blurred piece in the middle screws it from the get go. Too high, too much angle downward and the face that should have been the center piece of the image is buried instead of standing out. Lines of the blocks could have been framed better too.

...difference of opinion! Had I been eye level with it, you wouldn't have seen it. The face block is the subject, therefore, the only thing in focus (also adds depth). ...and I rarely center anything. Hahaha. Center is boring.

Posted by tiffers ...difference of opinion! Had I been eye level with it, you wouldn't have seen it. The face block is the subject, therefore, the only thing in focus (also adds depth). ...and I rarely center anything. Hahaha. Center is boring.

You can arrange them effortlessly. Why not optimize it? Who said anything about not being centered? It's where the lines meet the corners that I don't like plus the shot angle. Many times shooting low can produce stunning results. Unfortunately the OP doesn't have the option to rearrange the pieces in his subject easily.

That second large eye also distracts from the subject focus of the shot eyes and shouldn't be there... in my opinion...

While I technically agree with blackhawk, I like tiffers' shots. I think that the casual use of framing and shallow depth of field gives a pov vibe that I really like. It's like a snapshot through her eyes actually exploring, instead of an explorer actually photographing.

Posted by blackhawk You can arrange them effortlessly. Why not optimize it?

I don't arrange crap. It's not how I do things. I very, very, VERY rarely move something for the sake of a shot. I'm not one of those folks. It's just not my style.

...and somehow this has become you crapping on my photo when I was merely using it as an example to explain what I was telling the OP. lol Mercy.

Posted by Pongo It's like a snapshot through her eyes actually exploring, instead of an explorer actually photographing.

I take photos that I like...for me, not necessarily for anyone else. You have documentary photographers, by-the-book-no deviation photographers, artsy-fartsy photographers, and photographers who merely take photos for their own enjoyment. I'm somewhere between the last two. Hahaha.

Posted by tiffers I don't arrange crap. It's not how I do things. I very, very, VERY rarely move something for the sake of a shot. I'm not one of those folks. It's just not my style. ...and somehow this has become you crapping on my photo when I was merely using it as an example to explain what I was telling the OP. lol Mercy. I take photos that I like...for me, not necessarily for anyone else. You have documentary photographers, by-the-book-no deviation photographers, artsy-fartsy photographers, and photographers who merely take photos for their own enjoyment. I'm somewhere between the last two. Hahaha.

The OP is presumably trying to avoid documentary style photography. Neither of your photos address his root problem of a somewhat drab, cluttered site filled with rubble, to be perfectly frank.

Moving items around to gain better composition in photography is perfectly acceptable except in journalism or if for documentation. The other exceptions that come to mind are wild life, action/sports, and street shooting.

For the OP's location he milk more out of it by shooting at sun rise/set and playing the light and shadows. A lense with good flare control will allow shots directly towards the sun for even more dramatic effects.

Posted by blackhawk The OP is presumably trying to avoid documentary style photography. Neither of your photos address his root problem of a somewhat drab, cluttered site filled with rubble, to be perfectly frank.

...which is precisely why I gave the advice I did...because he doesn't want plain-jane photos of clutter. My advice was MY approach on shooting 'cluttered environments'. ...so, yes...my advice was valid.

Posted by blackhawkMoving items around to gain better composition in photography is perfectly acceptable except in journalism or if for documentation.

I never said it wasn't acceptable. Hahaha. *facepalm*

Allow me to retort.

#1. I like the shoot through the hole, door,etc idea a lot but this angle isn't working. Square off the images whenever possible unless it enhances the composition. Use the rule of thirdshttp://digital-pho...om/rule-of-thirds/, try not to dead center this subject; a shot slightly angled and off center might work better.

What looks good to your eye at first doesn't always pan out in the view finder or monitor; you are restricted to the limits of your optics. Line up the shot from different angles/locations to try to get it to work. Shoot it near sunset/dawn, you can flash fill or use other lighting effects too; change to lighting.

One keeper is worth as many shots as it takes...


#3. OK, I see what you're trying to do with the sunlight and the frame shadows. The problem being the wall on the right and the windows aren't squared off and that's not working for you here. Get the cam height and angle right. Freestyle shooting with no tripod helps; in good light it's easy to line up shots and get keepers like this. Use a wall etc to brace the cam or yourself if you can. Avoid taking shots at eye level just because it's easier; use the height that frames the subject the best.
Had you squared off this shot, you could have cropped out just the windows and wall and lost the foreground. Cropping can be a big help post shooting. Another reason to try to square off the shot when possible.

Post shooting use a custom tone curve. Canon's DPP app is great for this if you shoot with their bodies. It gives a bunch of presets that many times with bring up shots. Always shot RAW images. More time consuming, but much more flexibility plus you can alter picture style in post processing, at least with Canon.

Most Pro cam bodies have the brightest and best viewfinders. The difference when shooting is noticeable. I'd pick up my Mark3 other my 5D any day I didn't need ff because of the better viewfinder and grip. Heavier bodies and lens are easier to free shoot with; more inertia means more stability. You won't go wrong with pro bodies and quality fast lens if you can afford them. They make shooting easier, more fun, and expand your capabilities.

This is getting stupid...

I agree with a few of the things blackhawk said. Personally I would have moved the large lego in front and the eye behind the head. Those things are worth pointing out since they add to the clutter and the OP should consider the fact that on occasion you DO have the power to move things. It's still a nice shot though and despite the clutter blackhawk still sees in it, there is a very clear focus which makes it a good enough example of how to avoid clutter.

I shoot similarly tiffers, I very rarely move things. I can't tell you how many times I go back and look at my pictures and think 'god damnit I should have moved that!' though.

Composition, framing and shot angle are everything. When you have full control of the subject anything less than perfect is your fault. I find that is actually harder to do for me than street shooting and less fun.

Try shooting in a crowd with no control other than what you can exert with your presence and lining up what is there to shoot at the exact right instant. All the while trying to keep a tack sharp AF lock. No 2nd chances.

click to view

^Street shooting, my word. What a venture! Breathtaking. You truly are a master of photography.

Posted by DawnPatrol ^Street shooting, my word. What a venture! Breathtaking. You truly are a master of photography.

See the father of the boy on scooter in the blue shirt?
Interesting to be sitting in front of him, no?
Less then 5 seconds to compose that shot.
Completely fluid and unpredictable.
I encourage you to try it.