Posted by crockett85 Yeah but he was told that he was caught on camera. He would have been in a bigger jam if he lied about being inside.

In America, you never admit to a crime. It's sad, but admitting to a crime because of evidence law enforcement claims they have does nothing good for his case. There is no bigger log jam to get in, he's already in the log jam by giving the officer all the evidence he needed to press charges.

Choosing not to say anything is not going to make things worse, the only thing not saying or admitting anything could possibly do is cause no charges to be filed.

Trust me, you're better off not telling the police you committed a crime.

Of course the police told him they had him on camera. Why wouldn't they? It is the job of the police to determine if it's likely that you've broken the law, and if so, throw you in jail for the lawyers to figure it out. Police are legally permitted to lie to you so that you confess and tell on all your friends. They are permitted and encouraged to do so.

...so when the helicopter is above your head and you're the only dude in the field surrounded by squad cars....its a super good idea to shut the fuck up.


Police: "Hey kid, I have you on camera, I know you were in the building. How did you get in?"

Background: **helicopters, sirens, and german shepards**

Explorer: "Sir, I hear you, I have nothing to say"


Rinse. Repeat.


If you get pulled over or stopped for something minor (speeding, whatever, a ticketable offense).....you have a decision to make if you want to talk to the cop or not. Being pleasant *could* get you out of it and its unlikely you'll go to jail. If you're doing something you know is illegal and would probably result in your arrest, it's always better to say nothing.


Relux is correct. If you don't believe him or me, please watch and listen to what this lawyer, professor, and cop have to say.

https://www.youtub...atch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Posted by crockett85 Yeah but he was told that he was caught on camera. He would have been in a bigger jam if he lied about being inside.

Not true in the USA. They do that to trick you. The best thing you can do if you enjoy exploring is to learn the laws of where you do business. Don't be ignorant of the laws.

If you live in the USA, you should NEVER admit to a crime to the police. I thought that was common knowledge and common sense. But I'm learning that a lot of people think it's alright to talk or work with the police. NEVER work with or talk to the police. The job of the police is to arrest you. Don't ever give them evidence or a reason to arrest you. By talking to them you give them evidence. You have the right to remain silent.

REMAIN FUCKING SILENT! It is your right to not incriminate yourself...

Posted by Gunner Trees If you live in the USA, you should NEVER admit to a crime to the police. I thought that was common knowledge and common sense. But I'm learning that a lot of people think it's alright to talk or work with the police. NEVER work with or talk to the police. The job of the police is to arrest you. Don't ever give them evidence or a reason to arrest you. By talking to them you give them evidence. You have the right to remain silent. REMAIN FUCKING SILENT! It is your right to not incriminate yourself...

Not always true. You going to lawyer up over a trespass citation you can't beat? Cops can make more difficult and expensive if they want to. Each case is different and lawyers aren't cheap.

It all depends. It's never good to argue, but if you are going to try and talk yourself out of stuff you better know the pertinent local laws. Nothing wrong with talking as long as you don't say anything dumb or incriminating. I will usually try to slip in apology followed by a brief explanation.

"Oh, my mistake! I was just running errands and saw this cool building. I didn't see anything that said it was private property so I didn't think anyone would mind if I took a look. My mistake!

Now, that's only if the situation calls for it. If I'm immediately being barked at I just shut my mouth until it's time to speak with a prosecutor (if it comes to that). 99% of the time they are happy to reduce charges on nonviolent offenses if it means they are still getting paid something. The police don't care whether or not a property is properly posted or not. They can still write you a ticket either way. I have heard from friends on the force that there is nothing they hate more than dealing with the "I know my rights" crowd, so if you are going to try and explain yourself be tactful. But again, no two police officers are the same. It's less about what you say and more about how you say it.

Well, if you feel that apologizing to a police officer and saying you're sorry is the way to go, then so be it.

I'm going to chose not to tell the police I committed a crime.

So silly.

Posted by blackhawk Not always true. You going to lawyer up over a trespass citation you can't beat? Cops can make more difficult and expensive if they want to. Each case is different and lawyers aren't cheap.

I think you are missing the point, you wont need a lawyer if you don't tell the police you committed a crime. Stop the madness.

Posted by relux I think you are missing the point, you wont need a lawyer if you don't tell the police you committed a crime. Stop the madness.

Been there, done that. The Lt wanted to press felony trespass and loitering. I was chilly and cooperated with them. I caused them a -lot- of trouble. The police chief eventually intervened and had the prosecutor drop the charges to municipal misdemeanors. I greased their palms for $550 in fines via guilty plea and saved the $1200 in attorney fees. The charges never showed on any of my background checks. For all the trouble I caused them, a more than fair deal.

While they held me for over 3 hours in handcuffs I was chilly. They told me I was the most cooperative prisoner they ever had. Sometimes being honest and walking in a LEOs shoes goes a long way rather than trying to hard ball them. I've used this technique before with outstanding results, than again all I ever was doing was shooting images and never with malicious intent as in the cases of street shooting. All incidents resulted in open invites to come shoot again... by the police chief in the one incident who offered to let me in the Nike base. It was under his control, he had the keys to the gate. Many cops are fair and will work with you if you give them a chance.

Officers in my neck of the woods don't get to tell a prosecutor what to do, thats a complete fallacy. Officers do the arrest and "investigating", they don't decide on what charges a prosecutor charges out and what they decide to do with them.

Not admitting to a crime is not hard balling. The fact that society thinks that if you do what the police tell you that you have a right to do is hard balling is sad. When being arrested in the US you are actually told that you are allowed to say nothing and that if you do decide to say something it WILL be used AGAINST you. I don't know why people ignore this. They actually tell you ahead of time that they are waiting for you to incriminate yourself and as soon as you do, they will use it against you. Not might, they tell you they WILL.

Obviously, I don't know the situation in your case but if you were told you were the most cooperative "prisoner" they have ever had that to me means one thing.. that you did their investigative work for them - by admitting to a crime. It's more likely that those charges were reduced because they could not prove the felony charge either way and by "cooperating" (and correct me if i'm wrong, but I assume is telling them you committed a crime) you guaranteed a conviction on the misdemeanor charge. Otherwise, that too would have been dropped. Prosecutors do not want to go to trial on a charge they cannot prove, which is why they get reduced. They don't reduce charges because they are being nice to you - a complete stranger to them.

Not attempting to argue here, I just believe that the idea that people think admitting a crime is going to do them good is absurd. Bottom line is it's important to know your rights and the laws where you live. Along with having the right to say nothing you have the right to decide whats best for you in your situation. It's not about giving an officer a hard time, it's about doing whats right for yourself and in most cases that's not handing the officer incriminating evidence on a platter because you think he's going to be nice to you. We the people pay them to investigate crimes, that's their job. If its considered hard balling by making them do this, then so be it.

I showed them the images, and let them keep the cam and cards for 2 days. My story match the pics and time line. The chief knew they had been mislead by a 13 yo girl who reported a man with a rifle going into the tree line.

They had a 3 hour stand off with most of their dozen or so men and they were amped up. If you think the DA and the cops don't work together, guess again, especially in small townships. The Sargeant told me on the day of the hearing to talk with the prosecutor before the hearing and what to say. They all knew what happened. I rather have given that money to the township than a lawyer as I did cause them some grief. Without the chief's help I would've needed a lawyer. Honesty goes a long way with cops -if- you didn't do anything major. If you assaulted, robbed, etc someone expect them to do everything in their power to have you convicted, and rightfully so.

Had I gotten a lawyer there's no guarantee he would have gotten all the charges dropped. I also knew since I crossed multiple fields to get to the site they could have charged me with agricultural trespass, a felony charge in NJ. They can always add more charges...

My goal was to get the felony charges dropped to misdemeanors. If you screw up and get busted that's the best you can shoot for in this circumstance. Had the deal not worked I would have asked for a continuous and layered up. When you're caught red handed by the police, not talking isn't going to work anyway. Cops are the most credible witnesses there are.

Out of curiosity, other than the photos, the camera, the confession and the word of a 13 year old child, what evidence did they have against you? From a quick look at NJ laws, and feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, my goal would have been to not have any conviction. There is no such thing as a felony trespassing charge in New Jersey, agricultural land or not.

Look, for each their own. If you think you got off with the best situation possible, that's fine. I can tell you theres others in this same thread that when confronted with same type of circumstance chose to not say anything and got off with nothing at all on their record. With no lawyer fees needed.

Posted by relux In America, you never admit to a crime. It's sad, but admitting to a crime because of evidence law enforcement claims they have does nothing good for his case. There is no bigger log jam to get in, he's already in the log jam by giving the officer all the evidence he needed to press charges. Choosing not to say anything is not going to make things worse, the only thing not saying or admitting anything could possibly do is cause no charges to be filed. Trust me, you're better off not telling the police you committed a crime.

Just to be clear, when the police got us we were still well inside the fence, and therefore trespassing. They didn't need anymore evidence than that. We were very very obviously trespassing because they literally caught us doing it. It doesn't matter if they actually got us on camera or not, and it matters even less when you consider the fact that an officer actually saw us inside the building anyway.

That being said, I agree with your point. If plausible deniability is an option than it is absolutely best to try and maintain it, but I would think it's pretty rare to get caught trespassing without actually being in the act of trespassing while you are caught. That is probably why, from what I have read on this site, cooperation is generally a good policy. Pissing the cops off by making it take longer isn't going to help you out at all. They already got you for trespassing. Cooperation makes for happier police officers which may just win you a warning, as long as your cooperation doesn't entail further self implication.

In almost every state it's not trespassing until you are told to leave and either refuse to depart or return....

Denying is certainly better than admitting, but it's best to not say anything. Not speaking or saying anything is the best practice IMO. If it pisses off the cops to not hand them evidence for a conviction, so be it. That's the only reason they'll be pissed.

Posted by relux In almost every state it's not trespassing until you are told to leave and either refuse to depart or return.... Denying is certainly better than admitting, but it's best to not say anything. Not speaking or saying anything is the best practice IMO. If it pisses off the cops to not hand them evidence for a conviction, so be it. That's the only reason they'll be pissed.

Apparently the NJ Agricultural trespass code was change in 2009. It is now a misdemeanor.

As far as being verbally told to leave; most states require less than that. Owner signed trespass signs posted at specified intervals are common and enforceable. Purple paint on every fence post here is no trespassing posting.
http://www.eastte...sts-in-texas-mean/
The act of opening an unlocked door or climbing through a window can elevate trespassing to breaking and entering, or burglary in many states.

You need to explore the penal codes for the state you are exploring thoroughly before you find out the hard way. Many times trespassing on business property can have different laws than residential trespassing. The laws for federal and active military sites differ and are more severe.

Posted by relux In almost every state it's not trespassing until you are told to leave and either refuse to depart or return.... Denying is certainly better than admitting, but it's best to not say anything. Not speaking or saying anything is the best practice IMO. If it pisses off the cops to not hand them evidence for a conviction, so be it. That's the only reason they'll be pissed.

In addition to what blackhawk said, a fence, as far as I know, legally implies refused access. The no trespassing signs that happened to be on the Navistar fence rather sealed the deal too.

If this:
"In almost every state it's not trespassing until you are told to leave and either refuse to depart or return"
were true then I would not have been arrested for trespassing. I had not been asked to leave at any point and while I don't know exactly what I said to the police officers, I do know it's hard to admit to something that never happened. If your statement were true then no one in their right mind would ever get arrested for trespassing because no one in their right mind would refuse to leave a property if it meant potential legal repercussions.

Posted by relux In almost every state it's not trespassing until you are told to leave and either refuse to depart or return....

Not in New Jersey or New York, I can tell you that for sure. Around here, as Blackhawk said, if a site is posted or has a fence, you are trespassing. I learned NY laws through the assistant DA of the state's Capitol city in college, and have had to deal with charges here in Jersey. What you have described is just one small subsection of our penal codes. And this is exactly why it's important to learn each areas own laws when exploring outside of one's usual stomping grounds.

Posted by TD In addition to what blackhawk said, a fence, as far as I know, legally implies refused access. The no trespassing signs that happened to be on the Navistar fence rather sealed the deal too. If this: "In almost every state it's not trespassing until you are told to leave and either refuse to depart or return" were true then I would not have been arrested for trespassing. I had not been asked to leave at any point and while I don't know exactly what I said to the police officers, I do know it's hard to admit to something that never happened. If your statement were true then no one in their right mind would ever get arrested for trespassing because no one in their right mind would refuse to leave a property if it meant potential legal repercussions.

You misunderstood. In those states, if you refuse to leave its trespassing and if you return after being told not to return its trespassing. You typically can't be guilty of trespassing if you haven't received a notice saying you will be trespassing if you return, etc. (i.e. verbally, signs, etc). Obviously, this varies by states.

"if that were true then I would not have been arrested for trespassing" Well, if you think only guilty people are arrested for crimes then we should just do away with the court system all together. Geez. Police officers are not lawyers, they are the janitors of the legal system.

Great discussion of trespassing, it is very true you need to learn the laws for your own state. But for the 100th time, please shut up when you are around an officer...life will be better, i promise =)

Posted by relux Great discussion of trespassing, it is very true you need to learn the laws for your own state. But for the 100th time, please shut up when you are around an officer...life will be better, i promise =)

With cops each situation is different. Wait for them to ask and stay calm. It always serves the lawyers interest to remain silent, but not yours. If you aren't in cuffs the cop may simply be curious why you're there. Sometimes they even say go ahead and shoot but be careful or give you useful info.

Cops respond positively most times when you report scrappers, vandals, or worse. I was given free run of Pennhurst by tagging a copper scrapper by the state police plus other obscure sites to explore.

I had two FBI Agents stop by my house about 10 years ago unannounced. They asked me about a bunch of images I shot over 3 days in Chester. I showed them. Why not? I learned more from them than they did from me. If you are guilty the FBI will give you one chance to come clean, if you lie or stonewall them and it's something they're interested in, you are boned more than likely. The DEA is similar. Many times what they say is on the level.

At a fair I was shooting had 3 local cops ask to see my images. They wouldn't say why. They looked and looked, finally the Lt looked, then talked to the fair president. The fair president was appalled they were hassling me. The fair has a photo contest every year. She told the Lt, 'Let him shoot all he likes!' Oh too funny, free rein to shoot the hell out of it and I did for many more fairs.
Latter I learned latter from one of the fire police the cops got a complaint from the girl in a bikini in the dunking booth. She was a minor. Lol, I got a couple AF locks on her, but decided not to punch the shutter; not a good subject. No image... and that's what the cops were looking for. I find if you treat cops, people, and property with respect and integrity when shooting things tend to work out right.

I've had more encounters with police and detectives with no lawyers and no arrests. One thing I can you tell about most leos is they really hate being lied to. Never lie when the truth would serve you better. If you must lie, do so by omission... and remain silent.

Remember criminals come out at night;at night you're in for a harder time if spotted.

Are you a cop?