Hi wonderful (and highly sarcastic) people of UER. I am at a little bit of a dilemma. I would really like a small camera (mostly for UER) for times when I don't want to bring my DSLR with me or for opportunistic explores because I'm far more likely to have a small camera on me. As the title suggests I'm after a mirrrorless camera, rather than a compact (although I'm possibly open to suggestions of compacts with full manual controls and manual focusing if such a thing exists).

I've been looking at quite a few and I think have narrowed it down to the fuji x100 series, and the Oly OMD EM5/10. I'm hoping someone out there has used at least one, and preferably both for exploring and has some actual feedback.

Caveats: I use my DSLRs in manual, and I will be doing the same with these. I will be going to a lot of underground places where there is no natural light, and some pretty wet places too.

Any real world advice appreciated.

i think canon has a mirrorless camera, my mom likes the small one.

And prize for most inane comment goes to...

Stuff like 'my mom likes it' or 'I love it because it's red and that's like my favourite colour, OMG!!1!' is really not helpful.

Stuff like, 'I thought the fixed 35mm equivalent Fuji lens would be fine for UE, but it actually sucked and here's why...' or 'the weatherproofing of the OMD actually is a joke, mine leaked badly' Or good stuff like, 'x camera is amazingly fast at getting a good autofocus in the dark'. Some real world feedback from using them in far less than ideal conditions please.

Edited to say that I'm pretty set on having a viewfinder and I've got a top budget of around $500 for camera and lens. (I'm looking at buying lightly used/reconditioned)

I can't speak from experience, but I'd be skeptical of the long-exposure performance of most of these cameras. I could see them for above ground stuff, but all of the non-DSLR cameras I've tried for draining have been total, disappointing rubbish. It's not mirrorless, but my Canon G16 is resoundingly poor in this regard, especially compared to my D700 w/ nice glass. It's wonderful for above ground natural light stuff, but I truly believe it to be the wrong tool for the job when underground.

Quite frankly I cannot see any reason NOT to just bring your full sized DSLR draining. I've lugged mine (including battery grip & multiple lenses + full sized tripod) to the top of tower cranes, into sanitary sewers full of shit, into caves, onto rooftops and even rappel-access-only tunnels behind Niagara Falls.
The only regrets I have are the times it was left at home.

Just my $0.02 though...maybe the new generation of mirrorless cameras are in fact great at low light long-exposure. Hopefully others can chime in with some hands on experience and example photos

the fuji X100T is not weatherproofed. The XT-10 is not weatherproofed the XT-1 is and takes interchangeable lenses. I have the X100T but would not get it a little bit wet.

Most mirrorless cameras are decent, but they do not have the ruggedness of dslr's and lenses. The af can be very slow even on the better mirrorless cameras in low light, this is where dslrs like the Canon 6D shine. However, that being said, it's still a personal choice. Go to a store, try out mirrorless and dslrs and you can get a better idea of what will work best for you.

Ricoh GRII or the first one gets rave reviews

I haven't used either of those cameras so I can't quite contribute in the manner you're looking for. I do have some experience shooting underground though so I will address that aspect of your needs. Depending on what you're doing, I can understand the need for something smaller. I've dragged my camera everywhere with me, but there's considerable risk to doing that. Not to mention it makes things like caving a lot more difficult.

I have a friend who does caving photography with the canon powershot g16 and gets some amazing results. The key, however, isn't so much the camera as the lighting. I've yet to come across a camera that will give you amazing results underground without some good lighting. The caving group I have explored with prefers zebralights. They're INCREDIBLY bright, small, have multiple settings, and they're only around $90. You can buy them in both spot and flood and they work really well for underground photography.

Also, if you're looking for a lighter, easier to carry tripod to go with your new camera you might want to consider a gorillapod. Someone got me one for my birthday and they're actually surprisingly sturdy. The one I got will actually hold my 5D mark II with my 16-35mm wide angle lens (I believe the combination is around 6 pounds). It does limit your perspective a bit, but it's better than lugging around and possibly destroying a nicer full-sized tripod in the mud like I did with my manfrotto :/

Best of luck in your camera searches, let us know what you end up with!

I had a really interesting discussion with one of the sales people at Henry's (A local camera specialty chain in Ontario) when deciding between going mirror-less or not. I won't go into crazy detail but the gist of the conversation was that because mirror-less cameras are relatively new to the market there are a lot of kinks to be worked out yet. One of the biggest downfalls is the life span of the shutter motor. While it's not uncommon for a standard DSLR to have well over a hundred thousands shutter count, it's a rarity to get even close to that from a mirror-less. The salesman even spoke to the low light capabilities of DSLR cameras over the mirror-less, but did say they are no far behind. In essence it's only a matter of time before mirror-less cameras surpass their DSLR big brothers, it's just a matter of perfecting the mechanics behind them and with the major companies heavily investing in them it may come sooner than later.

Thanks for the useful replies.

Terapr0: I too have lugged my DSLR down drains and up cranes, with a tripod in tow. It's not a huge problem a lot of the time, but it's in caves that I really find myself wanting a small, good camera. Something I can throw into a small peli box and put into my cave pack without adding too much bulk. Weight is not as much of an issue.

DawnPatrol: Yep, lighting is indeed the key here. In mines and where possible I love using a large carbide lamp, because it has the best, bar none, light source for underground. Otherwise I have some ultrabright cave-proof lights. Although a zebralight would be a nice addition to my growing collection. Too many lights!

Maglyte: Thanks for the heads up on the x100T, something to consider, thanks.

Bvmblebee: That is something I hadn't actually thought about - cheers.

I'm still pretty intent on finding something that I can do a lot with. Maybe I will rule out some of the longer exposure stuff with this camera and look more towards a an 'always with me' thing and keep the DSLR for the underground and long exposure night shots. Things to think about...

Edited to add: Niagara falls tunnels with abseil access?! Nice!

I'm surprised that Nikon is being completely ignored in this discussion. How about Nikon's Nikon 1 AW1?

Also, why didn't you post this in the "What camera to buy?" thread?

Seems like I'm one of the only ones that uses mirror less around here. I have an Olympus epl5 and a nikon coolpix A. My brother in law uses an Olympus omd.

Get one. They're great. Small. The Prime lenses are fantastic. No problems with long exposure, or image quality.

The coolpix A has a fixed 28mm. Crazy sharp. And compact. I fit two cameras in my bag and they still take up less space than a dslr. I'll never use a dslr again.

The Fujis get great reviews too. But the only thing is they use a sensor technology that doesn't bode well with photoshop. And has a clunky proprietary software. But of you're willing to use it, results are fantastic.

Anyone who says dslrs are better is high.

Anyway. Everything on my Flickr is with mirrorless. So if you want to see samples, check it out.

Flickr.com/photos/randomesquephoto

http://blog.mingth...om/2012/06/02/omd/

http://blog.mingth...icoh-gr-digital-v/

The ricoh is basically the same as the coolpix a by the way. Amd you can find the A cheap as fuck

http://blog.mingth...ow-much-is-enough/

Posted by Shawn W. I'm surprised that Nikon is being completely ignored in this discussion. How about Nikon's Nikon 1 AW1?

Because Nikon's range of CSC are pretty fucking terrible, and are little more than compact toys... Seriously, that little sensor.

Posted by Shawn W. Also, why didn't you post this in the "What camera to buy?" thread?

Because, honestly, most of the people who post in there couldn't tell me what ISO is, let alone what makes a decent camera. Even if you beat them over the head with the Ilford Manual of Photography.

Posted by randomesquephoto Get one. They're great. Small. The Prime lenses are fantastic. No problems with long exposure, or image quality. The Fujis get great reviews too. But the only thing is they use a sensor technology that doesn't bode well with photoshop. And has a clunky proprietary software. But of you're willing to use it, results are fantastic.

Cheers for that. I've been leaning towards the em5... How would you feel about taking it somewhere damp and where it might get a bit banged around? Is it pretty rugged?

Posted by randomesquephoto Seems like I'm one of the only ones that uses mirror less around here. I have an Olympus epl5 and a nikon coolpix A. My brother in law uses an Olympus omd. Get one. They're great. Small. The Prime lenses are fantastic. No problems with long exposure, or image quality. The coolpix A has a fixed 28mm. Crazy sharp. And compact. I fit two cameras in my bag and they still take up less space than a dslr. I'll never use a dslr again. The Fujis get great reviews too. But the only thing is they use a sensor technology that doesn't bode well with photoshop. And has a clunky proprietary software. But of you're willing to use it, results are fantastic. Anyone who says dslrs are better is high. Anyway. Everything on my Flickr is with mirrorless. So if you want to see samples, check it out. Flickr.com/photos/randomesquephoto

Dslrs are still currently better. They are much more reliable, have a way better lens selection especially long lenses and I'd like to see mirrorless cameras handle weather like a weather sealed 1D body. That being said, mirrorless has come along way but still has more to go. The AF needs improvement still, especially in the dark and the reliability needs a huge upgrade, good luck getting anywhere close to 100k on the shutter like a Dslr can.

Not saying mirrorless is bad, it is pretty good, it's new tech that is still being fine tuned.

Posted by Cracked Because Nikon's range of CSC are pretty f***ing terrible, and are little more than compact toys... Seriously, that little sensor.

The Nikon 1 AW1 is waterproof, freezeproof, and shockproof, and so are its lenses.

Because, honestly, most of the people who post in there couldn't tell me what ISO is, let alone what makes a decent camera. Even if you beat them over the head with the Ilford Manual of Photography.

I think that you're wrong about that.

Posted by ZenCanadian Dslrs are still currently better. They are much more reliable, have a way better lens selection especially long lenses and I'd like to see mirrorless cameras handle weather like a weather sealed 1D body. That being said, mirrorless has come along way but still has more to go. The AF needs improvement still, especially in the dark and the reliability needs a huge upgrade, good luck getting anywhere close to 100k on the shutter like a Dslr can. Not saying mirrorless is bad, it is pretty good, it's new tech that is still being fine tuned.

I can't speak to the weather-sealing on the Canon 1D, but I second the rest of what Zen has said.

Posted by ZenCanadian Dslrs are still currently better. They are much more reliable, have a way better lens selection especially long lenses and I'd like to see mirrorless cameras handle weather like a weather sealed 1D body. That being said, mirrorless has come along way but still has more to go. The AF needs improvement still, especially in the dark and the reliability needs a huge upgrade, good luck getting anywhere close to 100k on the shutter like a Dslr can. Not saying mirrorless is bad, it is pretty good, it's new tech that is still being fine tuned.

What the fuck are you talking about?

There is also full frame sony mirrorless options if you want to get into it.

This dslr touting bullshit is for the birds.

Posted by Cracked Cheers for that. I've been leaning towards the em5... How would you feel about taking it somewhere damp and where it might get a bit banged around? Is it pretty rugged?

No problem bringing it through anything. The OMD is great, my brother in law takes it everywhere.

I put my olympus epl5 through its paces, and it's not weather sealed, never had a problem, definitely haven't encountered anything abandoned it couldn't handle. I beat the shit out of my gear.