<rant> I really hate it when people think they 'own' a place and can control what other people are allowed to say about it or share about it on the internet. Guess what, bud, but you weren't the first to find it either. Even if you 'found' it on your own, you know who found it first? The people who built it. The UEDB is not about "credit" and no additional rights are given to the person who first creates a location, besides a linkage. Anyone can then edit it or add photos. And by default they are hidden from the public and shown only to the 3000~ Full Members on this site. So if you really feel you can own these places, maybe you should set up a tent out front and 'occupy' it to prevent anyone else from getting in. Maybe you should install your own padlock on the door and charge for access. </rant>

I think there is a very distinct difference here, Av.

People claim ownership of a location usually for preservationist aspects. This typically means telling others that come upon it to keep it secret, don't post photos of it online — all to reduce traffic and potential implications of location access disappearing in the future if it blows up all over the Internet. The outcome of such confrontations usually goes two ways: the person posting wasn't aware (for the most part) and understands/agrees not to share any additional details and even take down any existing photos or information. Or they get defensive and proclaim "stoopid elitism".

I have seen this happen so many times around here that it is not possible to ignore this phenomenon as simply "not occurring" or "cops/securiy don't browse this forum" is not possible.

I'm not suggesting that people post photos of the entranceway. But police/property owners/etc aren't idiots. They're not going to blithely ignore a building, trolling UER, waiting with bated breath for someone to post a location or a photo of said building, or an innocent query about the building, and then immediately pounce on the property and weld all the windows shut.

I'm also not advocating for all information to be made fully public. But I really, really hate it when people come on this site and hassle new, eager explorers simply for sharing their photos of what they see as "their" location.

-av

Explorers have to brag. If someone does not post a super secret location here and is vocal about it, you can be sure they are slapping pics up (and probably naming names) on social media sites elsewhere.

AV,

Since you're obviously directing this gibberish at me, I'll address it.

Posted by Avatar-X <rant> I really hate it when people think they 'own' a place and can control what other people are allowed to say about it or share about it on the internet.

First of all, I never said, nor thought, that I own any of these places. So go on hatin', hater.

Secondly, I never said, nor thought, that I can control what other people are allowed to say on the internet. Keep on projecting your delusions at people. Odds are, they'll be correct eventually.

What I said was that it bugs me when people put a location on the database that they had nothing to do with. When it's done, knowing full well that others have been putting time and energy into keeping open and it was this effort that likely got them in anyway and they're going to go add it to the database, thus sharing it with thousands of people they don't even know. I find that to be a slight betrayal of trust. We've been though this before, no-ones trying to pretend like they own the place, just advocating discretion. You seem to be one of those people who equate discretion with elitism.

Posted by Avatar-X Guess what, bud, but you weren't the first to find it either. Even if you 'found' it on your own, you know who found it first? The people who built it.

Mind = BLOWN

Posted by Avatar-X So if you really feel you can own these places, maybe you should set up a tent out front and 'occupy' it to prevent anyone else from getting in. Maybe you should install your own padlock on the door and charge for access. </rant>

Once again, I don't feel like I own these places, so you can stop with the delusional projections. Your mental image of me does not define me in reality, it is a construct of your imagination.

Posted by Avatar-X I'm not suggesting that people post photos of the entranceway. But police/property owners/etc aren't idiots. They're not going to...immediately pounce on the property and weld all the windows shut.

Oh! So you know what police and property owners are up to? Dude that kind of knowledge would be really valuable in this hobby!

Except that you're wrong. I've been held at gunpoint as a direct result of something that was posted on the internet. You never know what people are going to do. Instead of pretending like you have it all figured out, maybe dig your head out of the sand some time. You can't keep pretending like the internet does not contribute to problems, otherwise you'd be all for people posting photos of the entrances, too.

What's that you say? It's not a good idea to post entrances publicly? Tell us why you feel this way. Why are you trying to "control what other people are allowed to say about it or share about it on the internet"? You don't own that place! You're such an elitist!!

Posted by Avatar-X I'm also not advocating for all information to be made fully public. But I really, really hate it when people come on this site and hassle new, eager explorers simply for sharing their photos of what they see as "their" location.

Show me one single example of me doing this. Otherwise, get off my case about it, "bud". This is not the first time you've called me out on something I'm not guilty of.

I wasn't directing it at you. It was just a general response to the points you made. I wasn't accusing you personally of anything.

Show me one single example of me doing this. Otherwise, get off my case about it, "bud". This is not the first time you've called me out on something I'm not guilty of.

Again, not you, but the other thread "Keep climbing" is exactly the type of thing I am fighting against. The point is moot now as I have instituted a new rule that bans this kind of bullying.

Can we give it a name? Like, "You sir have violated the MSP Elite rule. You are now banned" ;)

There is a logic discrepancy here.

1. Entrances are not allowed. Got it.

2. But highly sensitive locations are A-O-K and you're a bully who pretends to own locations if you ask anyone to not post that location.

The same argument for not posting entrances is the same argument for not posting sensitive locations.

You got it, SubLunar; I'm glad you were able to distill it down in such a concise way.

-av

I once politely asked a local to remove a highly sensitive location he posted.

He politely agreed it might not be a good idea to have it up here and removed it himself.

This behavior is NOT ALLOWED!

Now you know how you've erred -- next time, simply ask the mods to make the location "private".

This is an Urban Exploration website -- locations may be "highly sensitive" in your opinion, but if someone wants to share with other Urban Explorers, they've come to the right place. Concerns about information being "public" can be easily allayed by making the thread private.

-av

Posted by SubLunar I've been held at gunpoint as a direct result of something that was posted on the internet.

I would like to hear that story.

long story. maintenance guy wanted to give tours of a place to make extra money on the side. Someone worked with this guy and set up the tour information on a local university website. Mind you, this was not set up by frat boys, this was an officially sanctioned event (so we thought) set up by staff who have certain professional interests in things related to this place. So we get there, no sign of problems, we go inside with the maintenance guy, we get to the basement and the next thing I know there's a beretta in my face and someone yelling at me. No idea who's pointing it. I thought either some idiot was messing around or we were getting robbed. Took a few very tense moments before I saw a flashlight illuminate a badge. Turns out the owners were hiding with cops to ambush us in the dark basement. The cops didn't identify themselves, it was pitch black dark down there. Could have made it much easier and waited outside by the entrance.... There was about 15 of us. They dragged us all upstairs, took our info and told us not to come back. These same owners have harassed people when their property is mentioned elsewhere online. They actively watch out for that sort of thing. It happens. Property owners do this. It's not some over protective delusional explorer's fantasy.

Holy crap, what a set up! Was the maintenance guy fired, or was he in on it?

It's a great story, but I don't see how it has anything whatsoever to do with places UER?

You said in your original post:

Except that you're wrong. I've been held at gunpoint as a direct result of something that was posted on the internet.

You implied that this was somehow related to UER or to another urban exploration site, by virtue of that you posted it here. But the event you describe has nothing whatsoever to do with UER or any other urban exploration site -- it could easily have been posted on a bulletin board on the campus. Are you hating on the internet just for the sake of it being the internet? Or are you just upset that you didn't do enough research to verify that this "tour" was legit?

-av

Actually a couple of our locations here have been locked down within days of photos appearing in the PNW board.

Posted by Crypton Actually a couple of our locations here have been locked down within days of photos appearing in the PNW board.

It doesn't quite convince me that the photos were the reason. Correlation, not cause.

Posted by SubLunar The same argument for not posting entrances is the same argument for not posting sensitive locations.

He makes a good point, actually. But whereas SubLunar argues that "sensitive" locations, like POEs, should be kept secret, I would argue that even POEs should be shared.

Suppose an owner or onsite security person discovers your POE info online. What will they do? Nail up the window, or lock the door. Now suppose they only discover some photos taken inside their place. What will they do? Nail up all the windows, lock all the doors.

And suppose an eager urban explorer finds your photos of the interior. What will they do? Search all over for an entrance. --Wouldn't it be better to just tell them the quickest, safest, least conspicuous way inside?

Posted by billgeorge And suppose an eager urban explorer finds your photos of the interior. What will they do? Search all over for an entrance. --Wouldn't it be better to just tell them the quickest, safest, least conspicuous way inside?

*Grabs the popcorn in anticipation for the fireworks show.

My primary focus is underground so my comments are most relevant to underground, but it's similar to the way things work for buildings. Underground stuff generally lasts longer/has a longer timeline for exploring, but other than that it's essentially the same as buildings. Some of us spend hours if not days doing research for one urban underground location, and then days if not multiple weekend trips scouting that one location. Sometimes we fail and give up. Other times we eventually succeed and spend the next weekend trip jumping for joy and exploring the shit out of the place. Tell the wrong person and shit gets closed and all that effort and days of time and gas money and hotel bills get thrown out the window...wasted. I just spent several hours researching the location of no more than three huge natural caves in an area I plan on traveling to soon. Several hours of computer work, and I'm still not 100% sure I've got the right location on two of the three caves. Why couldn't I be sure? Because cavers go to even greater lengths than explorers to hide cave locations. And I spent countless all-nighters in front of the copy machine in college copying page after page of cave locations from before they made them secret so I could enjoy exploring these caves in future years. And it worked. Am I pissed that I spent so much time researching these three locations tonight and am not sure we'll find them? Not at this age, because I'm wise enough to understand the situation. Because if the locations were easily findable on teh internetz, every brodude would be in there and the owners and neighbors would throw a fit and hire a bulldozer and fill in all the entrances so that cave is gone forever. Then I definitely wouldn't get to explore it. This way I have to spend effort and think and put together clues and maybe do a bit of field scouting before I can explore it...but it's probably still open because the brodudes haven't found it. Back to the urban underground stuff. Sure I'll tell anyone trusted about it. I want them to see it. But nobody's gonna say a word about it on UER, because we want to be considerate to future trusted explorers and preserve access. There's a lot of wacky unexpected hardcore underground shit going on in the Midwestern UE scene that only trusted people know about and it's gonna stay that way, I say that even more emphatically after reading these new rule changes. Call us dicks for keeping our mouths shut, I don't care, but really we're the ones being considerate because we're preserving access for trusted explorers years in the future. Anybody who does anything that causes these locations to get sealed up can go fuck themselves. Fuck this, it's 4AM and I've gotta drive out to Sandland and haul out five loads of sand (an hour per) plus clean up some shit. Life is great when you have NEW TUNNELS!!!

Posted by Slim Jim A lot of good shit.

I love you Jimmahh!!


If you need help with said dirt-hauling, I'm free this whole weekend, and still have yet to contribute to, or even see Sandland in person. I also love and need new tunnels to explore, let's dig some. I'm already warmed up as a result of shoveling literally more than 3 tons of FRL out of my basement, and even more shit out of my own beautiful, sandstone sewer side-drift in a half-baked attempt to divert shit to a different tunnel that has a steeper grade (after I called public works, who informed me that it wasn't their problem since I live in a "tunnel sewer neighborhood" and to deal with it myself. And no, I am not kidding.

It would be an awesome change to dig some actual sandstone, Jordan sandstone actually (isn't it?) I remember hearing that the jordan stuff was softer and a little easier to dig than St. Peter.

Wow, no idea how I "drifted" (lol) so far off topic, to another un interpretable rant. However, I really am serious about digging. Sending you a PM or FB message tomorrow. Too tired to type any more tonight. Night UER.